25718 Posts in 4319 Topics - by 9432 Members - Latest Member: haddleas51

Author Topic: I don't understand turret DPS  (Read 221 times)

Speed

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
I don't understand turret DPS
« on: April 17, 2018, 04:46:35 AM »
I guess I don't understand how the DPS of a turret with multiple barrels (or possibly, a cooldown) calculated.  If a turret is a "Quad" <whatever> turret, do you multiply the base damage by 4X, for example?  The DPS shown on turrets would suggest that is the case.  HOWEVER, there used to be (maybe still are?) turrets that would show their damage as something like "2X39".  If, for example, on a quad turret, the damage should be multiplied by 4, why does it not say "4X<damage>"?

Also, I did an experiment with a turret that was a quad turret.  It was some obscene quad bolter that supposedly did 8k DPS (2k dps per barrel).  However, the amount of damage it actually did suggested to me that the turret did NOT do quad damage, it did single-barrel damage (i.e., it felt more like a 2k dps turret).

I thought I understood turret DPS on turrets with cooldowns.  I THOUGHT that the turret DPS was this:

DPS = Nb * D * R
Where Nb is the number of barrels (i.e., double, triple, quad), D is the damage, and R is the fire rate.  For weapons with cooldown, I thought that this would be the formula for DPS:

DPS = Nb * D * R * Ft / (Ft + Ct)
where Ft is the continuous firing time, and Ct is the cooldown time.

This appeared to match the DPS shown on the turret when I would mouse over it.  Though again, I am not confident that a "quad" turret actually multiplies your damage by 4.

ANYWAY, so I came across this just now and realized I really have NFC how DPS is calculated or how much DPS a turret really does.
See this railgun?


It is a triple railgun with no cooldown.  Its DPS should be 3*1263.1*0.6 = 2274.  However, the DPS shown on the tooltip is about 1/3 of that value (I assume the reason it's not exactly 1/3 of the value is that there is a rounding error on the firing rate, which is actually something like 0.62). 

Now, I take that exact same turret, and simply add an additional servo:

WTF?  Now the DPS is 2712?!  The DPS ought to be:
3*1263.1*0.7*(513.7/(513.7+8.3)) = 2610.  That is reasonably close, again, possibly the difference is rounding error on the firing rate of 0.7.  (Edit: In case it wasn't clear, the confusing part is that the DPS was only 1/3 of this value with ONE less servo (and no cooldown).  Does the number of barrels only matter when the turret has a cooldown?!)

So in short:
1) How do you calculate the DPS of weapons with multiple barrels? Do you multiply by the number of barrels, and if so, why do weapons with multiple barrels not say, like, "4X139.1"?
2)How do you calculate the DPS of turrets with cooldowns?  Is my formula correct?  I mean, my formula is the common-sense approach, but...
3) As we see from the example above, the common-sense approach fails to correctly predict the turret DPS sometimes.

Thanks for any help you guys can give.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:23:38 AM by Speed »

Ravien

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2018, 05:36:07 AM »
Damage is listed as 4x20, for example.

Damage per second calculates in all of the relevant damage stats, including multiple barrels.

So a quad barreled gun that does 4x20 damage, and 200 damage/s, will deal 80 total damage each volley, while doing a total of 200 damage a second.

You don't need to adjust the damage/s tooltip unless you're factoring in overheating or energy usage, but then it gets complicated.

Ravien

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2018, 05:38:26 AM »
Oh and I don't think "double" or "triple" barreled things actually shoot 2 or 3 projectiles per volley. It just means the turret has more barrels. What you're talking about are turrets that actually show up as dealing "2x40" or "3x60" damage per shot.

Burnthalo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2018, 05:57:37 AM »
double, triple and quad are just names. if it doesn't say 2x 3x or 4x its just a single from what I understand. I already posted in a suggestion that this is bogus and misleading and needs to be changed. name it what it is.

Speed

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2018, 07:05:49 AM »
double, triple and quad are just names. if it doesn't say 2x 3x or 4x its just a single from what I understand. I already posted in a suggestion that this is bogus and misleading and needs to be changed. name it what it is.
But that's not correct, because they are NOT just names.  Double, triple, or quad appears to multiply the turret DPS by 2X, 3X, or 4X respectively, at least for turrets that have a cooldown period.  Not sure about turrets without a cooldown period.  The question is, does it ACTUALLY increase the DPS, or is the DPS tooltip wrong?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 07:11:04 AM by Speed »

Ravien

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 204
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 07:40:09 AM »
You've made me so confused now!  :o

Speed

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2018, 09:17:18 AM »
You've made me so confused now!  :o
Just look at my example I give the screenshots for.  Just run the numbers.  I can post a better example (where there is less rounding error) but "double", "triple", or "quad" clearly multiplies the DPS in the turret tooltip by 2, 3, or 4, but apparently only if the turret has a cooldown.  So is the tooltip wrong or does the DPS really increase?!
 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:24:46 AM by Speed »

Kamo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Cuddles float better in space~
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2018, 09:49:25 AM »
Yup, that's weird, the damage/s just tripled while the damage stayed the same ! That's definitely either a bug in the DPS calculation... or a bug overnerfing non-overheating multibarreled guns by treating'em as singlebarreled :(.

So this hugely boosted damage I was "abusing" with my recently-made bolters were actually the "normal"/"expected" damage value ???.
Needs some creative mode tests to compare both types of guns to see if it's the case (I cannot do it because of the CocoCrash bug).
Colorize messages, with the colors of materials (from wiki) !
Ir #FFB380 Ti #FFFFFF Na #4DFF4D Tr #4D9AFF Xa #FFFF4D Og #FF8133 Av #FF2626

DivineEvil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 02:35:44 PM »
As far as I played, number of barrels never had any practical effect. Considering the two provided examples, its most possible, that the second turret fires in bursts of three shots, which results in displayed DPS. This is why its overheat values seem so outlandish, because they count Continuous Shots and Time Until Overheated for single shots and not barrages. This is also why the weapon with RoF this small overheats at all.

Multishot damage multiplier doesn't seem to be displayed reliably on all weapons, as I constantly coming up with random drops that should show it, but don't. Atm I have a Plasma cannon with very high displayed DPS and no damage multiplier or Burst Fire property, yet it has a shotgun firing mechanic.
Universe is but the energy floating in space with a set velocity. Everything on top is basic geometry.

Burnthalo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2018, 05:56:57 PM »
double, triple and quad are just names. if it doesn't say 2x 3x or 4x its just a single from what I understand. I already posted in a suggestion that this is bogus and misleading and needs to be changed. name it what it is.
But that's not correct, because they are NOT just names.  Double, triple, or quad appears to multiply the turret DPS by 2X, 3X, or 4X respectively, at least for turrets that have a cooldown period.  Not sure about turrets without a cooldown period.  The question is, does it ACTUALLY increase the DPS, or is the DPS tooltip wrong?
just going by what Ive read and actually see in game.  I even have one in inv right now that is named a single chain but shows the 3x multiplier. theres no logic to the naming as far as I can see.
  heres the screenie of the 3x single chain

Kamo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Cuddles float better in space~
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 12:13:13 AM »
And the damage per second shows clearly it's effectively triple (roughly 8x110x3). Strange. Maybe when the weapon generator "forgets" to put the multiplier in the name the tooltip generator puts it in the damage, but there's definitely shenanigans, probably due to how they came to exist in the first place ???.
Maybe multibarreled non-overheating weapons aren't supposed to exist, as the multibarrel multiplier happened on a non-overheating generated (looted) weapon here, while with the railgun, a fabricated weapon, the multibarrel multiplier disappeared from the damage calculation, alongside the cooldown :-X.
So the tooltip and weapon generation rules would be different depending on weapon origin and feeding different variables/informations on the game, which would be really puzzling, but I cannot imagine something else happening. So odd ::) !
Colorize messages, with the colors of materials (from wiki) !
Ir #FFB380 Ti #FFFFFF Na #4DFF4D Tr #4D9AFF Xa #FFFF4D Og #FF8133 Av #FF2626

DivineEvil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 12:57:57 AM »
Quote
And the damage per second shows clearly it's effectively triple (roughly 8x110x3). Strange. Maybe when the weapon generator "forgets" to put the multiplier in the name the tooltip generator puts it in the damage, but there's definitely shenanigans, probably due to how they came to exist in the first place ???.
Again, multiple barrels are aesthetic, period. There's absolutely no correlation of the number of barrels on any given weapon or utility tool with any of its properties. It just defines if there's multiple sources for shots/particles coming out.
Quote
Maybe multibarreled non-overheating weapons aren't supposed to exist, as the multibarrel multiplier happened on a non-overheating generated (looted) weapon here, while with the railgun, a fabricated weapon, the multibarrel multiplier disappeared from the damage calculation, alongside the cooldown :-X.
So the tooltip and weapon generation rules would be different depending on weapon origin and feeding different variables/informations on the game, which would be really puzzling, but I cannot imagine something else happening. So odd ::) !
It is also possible, that the game considered the damage too large for also printing the damage multiplier after it. What data is displayed on the weapon card depends significantly from the original source of the value, which is why sometimes you might get burst-fire weapons without the Burst Fire modifier or weapons of lower Tech level and 'Range +%' tooltip, while the same weapon of higher Tech Level have greater Range, but without the tooltip.
Universe is but the energy floating in space with a set velocity. Everything on top is basic geometry.

Speed

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 04:12:58 AM »
As far as I played, number of barrels never had any practical effect. Considering the two provided examples, its most possible, that the second turret fires in bursts of three shots, which results in displayed DPS. This is why its overheat values seem so outlandish, because they count Continuous Shots and Time Until Overheated for single shots and not barrages. This is also why the weapon with RoF this small overheats at all.

Multishot damage multiplier doesn't seem to be displayed reliably on all weapons, as I constantly coming up with random drops that should show it, but don't. Atm I have a Plasma cannon with very high displayed DPS and no damage multiplier or Burst Fire property, yet it has a shotgun firing mechanic.
The overheat values seem "outlandish" (as in, it takes a very long time for the weapon to overheat) because the turret is a normal, overheating turret, with the number of servos reduced (thereby reducing the fire rate) until the weapon no longer overheats.  Those screenshots show the boundary behavior of the in-game DPS calculations, right at the boundary between the weapon eventually overheating, and it shooting so slow that it never overheats.  As you vary the number of servos, there should not be a discontinuity in the DPS value, but there IS a discontinuity, by a factor of the number of barrels the turret has, and it occurs right when it becomes possible for the turret to overheat.

Speed

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 04:46:13 AM »
Here's an example with a faster-firing weapon (so that there is less rounding error) at three different points as you vary the number of servos.

First, here is the turret with reduced servos until it no longer overheats.

The turret is a triple turret, so the number of barrels is 3.  Using the non-overheating turret formula,
DPS = Nb * D * R
where Nb is the number of barrels (i.e., double, triple, quad), D is the damage, and R is the fire rate, the DPS should be:
Nb*D*R = 3*2640.4*1.5 = 11881.8

(Yes, I know many of you believe the number of barrels to be meaningless, but please stay with me on this...)

However, the displayed DPS is VERY close to 1/3 of that value, suggesting that the number of barrels is meaningless:
Dispalyed DPS = 3913.9
11882/3 (or simply 2640.4*1.5) = 3960.6
I believe that the difference between these two numbers is caused by rounding error on the firing rate.  The actual firing rate of the weapon is probably 3913.9/2640.4 = 1.482, which of course would round up to the displayed value of 1.5.

NOW, I add just ONE more servo so that the weapon now can overheat, and the displayed DPS jumps by a factor of 3!:


Now that the turret overheats, I will use the overheating turret formula:
DPS = Nb * D * R * Ft / (Ft + Ct)
where Ft is the continuous firing time, and Ct is the cooldown time.  So I calculate the turret should have a DPS of:
DPS = Nb * D * R * Ft / (Ft + Ct) = 3*2640.4*1.7*104.2/(104.2+5.6) = 12779.25
which matches the in-game displayed value 12534.7 pretty closely.  Again, the difference is probably caused by rounding error on the displayed firing rate.

Finally, this is what the turret looks like with the maximum number of servos:

As you can see, now that the weapon is cooldown-limited, increasing the number of servos only increases the burst DPS; it doesn't affect the weapon's average damage over time (which is the displayed value).  So calculating the DPS in this scenario, I get:
DPS = Nb * D * R * Ft / (Ft + Ct) = 3*2640.4*3.7*4.2/(4.2+5.6) = 12560.76
which is significantly closer the the in-game displayed value of 12534.7.  Again, the difference is probably caused by rounding error.

So I ask again: What is the turret's actual DPS?  Because it seems very unlikely to me that switching a turret from non-cooldown to cooldown should suddenly cause the DPS to increase by the a factor equal to the number of barrels the weapon has.  (If it DOES, then that itself it likely a bug).

Based on my gameplay experience, I think that most likely, the number of barrels is meaningless and the displayed DPS value for any turret with a cooldown is incorrect by a factor equal to the number of barrels.  Slightly less likely to me is that the number of barrels DOES matter and the displayed DPS values for turrets without a cooldown is wrong.


« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:00:03 AM by Speed »

Speed

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: I don't understand turret DPS
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2018, 05:53:51 AM »
I also found a turret factory turret in the current build that doesn't follow the rules I showed above.  So whatever the bug is, it doesn't appear to be consistent, maybe that's why it went unnoticed by the dev.