Author Topic: Ship class? Frigate / Corvette / Battleship?  (Read 27987 times)

DivineEvil

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on: February 12, 2017, 11:12:54 PM
Here are some reason by which I will never use such a classification and stick to my own methodology:
- Material code is not a part of ship's definition. Its a matter of tech-base, which can vary dramatically and is changed easily when possible. Materials change performance, but do not affect the ship class as a whole - they do not change the volume, do not change the role and do not change the design; A ship updated from Titanium to Trinium has better stats, but the design remains exactly the same. No vehicle has ever been designated by the materials used for its production.

- System module slot number is largely irrelevant for the time when classification comes to view. Considering the upcoming Weapon control block, it might appear that almost no ship aside from the player's Flagship will use any System Modules whatsoever. System modules can be attached or not, which will effect the power level greatly, but the classification does not reflects that at all. Classifying ships by module slots is effectively just as good as classifying them by any arbitrary volume values, but these arbitrary values can define a ship more accurately if additional class prefixes are attached.

- Ship's name is not a valid class use - it goes against the very definition of a class. Classes are used that way only in navy, because very few ships are actually created. The conventions used for ground vehicles and aircraft are more feasible for spaceships, because they can and will be mass-produced in the similar way. Using Avorion's customization, the ship's role and tech-base can be modified within the same frame, but the class of the frame will remain the same.
Your subconscious brain is currently busy identifying these words and their underlying meaning by the standards of the language. Your consciousness has no role in that process, just as it does not in anything you do. Frankly speaking, what you consider to be yourself is but a passive observer.



SageThe13th

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on: February 13, 2017, 06:24:51 AM
Here are some reason by which I will never use such a classification and stick to my own methodology:
Okay, so what system you want to use is your choice.  In fact, it was brought up no less than three times over the course of the previous conversation that no one system will ever be universally excepted.  In fact, if a single system ever sees wide spread use it will some kind miracle.  That being said, your reasons for disliking my system are objectively wrong.

- Material code is not a part of ship's definition. Its a matter of tech-base, which can vary dramatically and is changed easily when possible. Materials change performance, but do not affect the ship class as a whole - they do not change the volume, do not change the role and do not change the design; A ship updated from Titanium to Trinium has better stats, but the design remains exactly the same. No vehicle has ever been designated by the materials used for its production.
The material tiers are an important part of how Avorion works.  I'd say that a ship's material composition is almost the first thing you'd want to know about a ship because it will have a drastic effect on almost everything the ship can do.  And also pretty much tells you if can afford it.  Material tiers in Avorion also all exist at the same time so it's important to know what a ship is made of because it can be made out of anything.  In fact, the reason I suggested the addition of material type is because it's almost always the next thing a designer tells you about a ship after they tell you what ship type it is.

Next your example is very poor.  If anyone takes a Titanium ship and turns it into a Trinium one, changing absolutely nothing else they've done a half-assed job converting the ship.  Different materials have different properties and different block types available.  No one's going to go from Titanium to Trinium without adding in a shield generator.  Let's get even more detailed.  I start with Titanium Battleship, and change it into a Naonite one.  It's now much heavier which changes to it's acceleration and maneuvering.  It can now have a shield generator and there's no Naonite armor.  So, I either have to keep the titanium armor or use Naonite hull instead which exposes certain weaknesses.  But yeah, that sounds like the exact same ship to me.  /sarcasm.  Then going from Naonite to Trinium the ship becomes extremely light and I can have Trinium armor blocks.  At this point the better acceleration and maneuvering, even better than that of the first ship, might make the design more qualified to be a Battlecrusier at this point.  But hey, it's still exactly the same ship I guess.  /sarcasm.  Also my Trinium Battlecrusier will probably beat my Naonite Battleship which in turn can easily beat my Titanium Battleship.  I think this exposes one of the key problems with defining a ship's role and not much else.  Since between my Battlecrusier and two Battleships there is a massive difference in power.

- System module slot number is largely irrelevant for the time when classification comes to view. Considering the upcoming Weapon control block, it might appear that almost no ship aside from the player's Flagship will use any System Modules whatsoever. System modules can be attached or not, which will effect the power level greatly, but the classification does not reflects that at all. Classifying ships by module slots is effectively just as good as classifying them by any arbitrary volume values, but these arbitrary values can define a ship more accurately if additional class prefixes are attached.
Yes, the slot number is there basically just to tell how big a ship is because literally anything else can be changed.  Take a Battleship, yank out all the armed turrets and replace them with mining lasers and...  Bam! It's a mining ship now!  Also, slot numbers are easier to read, understand, and come in a much shorter format than volume numbers which go into the billions of cubic meters and exist on a gradient.  Also, you don't have to be a math guy to understand what the slot numbers mean as long as you know a few basics about ship systems and how they unlock.  Which, I'd think you'd learn if you were interested in playing the game well.  The system number is something pulled directly from the game and doesn't require you to consult some kind of chart to tell you exactly what it means.

- Ship's name is not a valid class use - it goes against the very definition of a class. Classes are used that way only in navy, because very few ships are actually created. The conventions used for ground vehicles and aircraft are more feasible for spaceships, because they can and will be mass-produced in the similar way. Using Avorion's customization, the ship's role and tech-base can be modified within the same frame, but the class of the frame will remain the same.
First, this isn't even part of my system.  A USCS code just this (Material)-(Systems).  At the longest it's going to be five characters, as in Av-12.
 And if you work it into your ship class/role/type somehow no matter what the rest of it looks like then you are using the system.

Second, a ship's class name is the very definition of it's class.  And, it can make sense to use a naval class system because I'm never going to make like 50 frigates.  I might make like 5.  Besides, people are going to do this anyway because generic Sci-Fi fleets are based off of naval fleets and so use many of the same conventions.



cy414

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on: February 13, 2017, 09:06:40 PM
the point of classifications in a game like this would be to tell the player some "at a glance" information.
13ths system covers that in a way applicable to this game very well.
giving volume(how big is it?)
tech level(roughly how good are its weapons armour hp?)
its class(whats it called?)

answering those 3 in a clear way is very useful, and provides that information more clearly than just a volume list of classes solely named after eve.

by all means, have a separate system/subsystem saying what the faction id and intention for the ship is to provide factions with character of their own.



Skycaptain124

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on: February 16, 2017, 08:04:41 AM
Ok, I get what you guys are saying about the weight based system, volume based system, and weapons based system but what happens when you build a ship weighing in at about 200 to 300 Billion tonnes and about 5.81 meteres cubed? My ship pretty much completely crushes the system to the point that i left it during a fire fight that lasted about 2 hours and it just sat there taking fire but the enemies couldnt get it past half health during those two hours. During this fight i was in a..... more maneuverable ship that i built quickly to use instead of the main ship. In any case, what would the classification be for this type of ship then? Universe class? I tried docking it at a space station and it ended up looking like i was docking the space station onto my ship instead, I turned just a little to quickly and sent the space station about 30 km away from its starting position. Weapon wise, it isnt the best since i put my good weapons on a ship that can actually fight but i just call my main ship the "ISS Barricade." Any thoughts on classification system in this and further weight/volume ranges would be much appreciated :)

Edit: My cargo hold is at 889941 and my hanger bay is at 123266-986130 fighters, Energy wise, it has 21.78 TW Energy Generation and 14.26 TW Energy Usage/Requirement. It also has a 2617.6 second hyperdrive cooldown and 124.2 sector range for actually warping. My ship requires 12007 engineers and 69187 mechanics (which i'm still working on hiring them). Crew Quarters accomodates up to 188107 total crew members. The insurance on this ship costs a total of negative (yes it actually says negative) 979,729,870 as the ship value and as of what it "says" i paid, that would be -2,011,905,880. All in all, i believe that this ship is a very game breaking thing and if it were used in online multiplayer then it would be nearly indestructible once fully crewed and with full hangerbay it would be quite hard to even get close to. (I have lots of free time and i love designing vehicles and surprisingly i only used 301 parts for this ship which is incredible considering the size and durability.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 08:26:37 AM by Skycaptain124 »



DivineEvil

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on: February 16, 2017, 08:20:59 AM
Tonnage is irrelevant.
I assume you mean 5.81 million M3. By my classification, its a Light Dreadnought.
Your subconscious brain is currently busy identifying these words and their underlying meaning by the standards of the language. Your consciousness has no role in that process, just as it does not in anything you do. Frankly speaking, what you consider to be yourself is but a passive observer.



Skycaptain124

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on: February 16, 2017, 08:29:24 AM
No, i mean Billion. it says 5.81 bill M3 and it also says 0.2 Gt which tells me that it is between 150 Billion tonnes and 249 Billion tonnes.



SageThe13th

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on: February 16, 2017, 12:28:21 PM
No, i mean Billion. it says 5.81 bill M3 and it also says 0.2 Gt which tells me that it is between 150 Billion tonnes and 249 Billion tonnes.

System code 16 by my system.  Again, I'll say that if someone's going to go that far you should probably check how big the ship is exactly.  You can list the role as whatever you want so it might be something like a Mega-Fortress.  Though, while that is completely excessive by Avorion's standards other Sci-Fi has some ridiculously huge ships such as Titans from Eve at 10 kilometers and longer and the Super Star Destroyers/Star Dreadnoughts from form Star Wars ranging from 12 kilometer all the way up to 20 kilometer depending on class and source material.



DivineEvil

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on: February 16, 2017, 05:06:14 PM
No, i mean Billion. it says 5.81 bill M3 and it also says 0.2 Gt which tells me that it is between 150 Billion tonnes and 249 Billion tonnes.
Then its not really a ship anymore, at least by Avorion standards, but a mobile Space Fortress. When you can effortlessly send other stations flying, there's no other context required.
Your subconscious brain is currently busy identifying these words and their underlying meaning by the standards of the language. Your consciousness has no role in that process, just as it does not in anything you do. Frankly speaking, what you consider to be yourself is but a passive observer.



LoSboccacc

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on: February 17, 2017, 06:26:04 PM
whatever the system it'd be extra useful for the player ship to receive the same subtitles as the others, so that when you share the ship the naming comes naturally - currently 'look at my fregate' cover ships from 1mil to 10mil volume :D



Salminar

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on: February 18, 2017, 11:26:00 AM
Not directly related to the topic but i was looking in the game files and i went accross the ingame classification that is related to volume of the ships (as we could guess) and was feeling posting it here would be good for everyone to know

    local base = 2000
    local scale = 2.5

    -- base class (explorer)
    maxVolumes[1] = base * math.pow(scale, -3.0)
    maxVolumes[2] = base * math.pow(scale, -2.0)
    maxVolumes[3] = base * math.pow(scale, -1.0)
    maxVolumes[4] = base * math.pow(scale, 0.0)  -> 2000
    maxVolumes[5] = base * math.pow(scale, 1.0)  -> 5000
    maxVolumes[6] = base * math.pow(scale, 2.0)  -> 12 500
    maxVolumes[7] = base * math.pow(scale, 2.5)  -> 19 750 ( 19764.235 ...)
    maxVolumes[8] = base * math.pow(scale, 3.0)  -> 31 250
    maxVolumes[9] = base * math.pow(scale, 3.5)  -> 49 400 (49410.588 ...)
    maxVolumes[10] = base * math.pow(scale, 4.0)-> 78 125
    maxVolumes[11] = base * math.pow(scale, 4.5)
    maxVolumes[12] = base * math.pow(scale, 5.0)


Military classification

"Scout
"Sentinel
"Hunter
"Corvette
"Frigate
"Cruiser
"Destroyer
"Dreadnought
"Battleship

Traders classification

"Trader
"Merchant
"Salesman


Freighters classification

Transporter
Lifter
Freighter
Loader
Cargo Transport
Cargo Hauler
Heavy Cargo Hauler


Miners classification

"Light Miner
"Light Miner
"Miner
"Miner
"Heavy Miner
"Heavy Miner
"Mining Moloch
"Mining Moloch

So they are sorted from the lighter to heavier. You have 12 categories defined by the code, but as you can see, only 9 exists for military and even less for the rest, so i guess it's for incoming updates.


Anyway even if it's directly extracted from the code, the values seem a bit weird, but at least that give an idea of the current ingame system.
It's in script/lib/shiputility.lua if anybody want to check and play a little bit with it, so it will look ingame for you as you wish it to be.
Don't forget to make a backup of the file.



Mobiyus

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on: February 23, 2017, 07:53:47 PM
After having built a couple of ships now and having to work out a naming classification for myself, i came to the realization that classic SciFi classes are simply irrelevant. The things that tell you the most about a ship in Avorion is the number of slots + material(s) used. That's all that's really needed as far as i'm concerned. Maybe sometimes a ship type suffix could be added to describe a specific purpose, if applicable ; Carrier, freighter, miner, ect.

I don't know what a ''Cruiser'' or a ''Battleship'' means in Avorion. As far as i know, it doesn't mean anything. The only classes i can be sure about is a corvette, cause it's the smallest, and dreadnought, cause it's the biggest. Anything in-between doesn't tell you anything. I strongly believe that any classification, be it ''classic'' or made-up, will never mean anything to anyone but a small minority of forum dwellers, unless hard-coded into the game.

Now a Trinium 7-slots ship, THAT, i know instantly what it is and have an idea of it's size and capabilities.

Therefore, my current classification is as such :
[ship name] [material]-[slots] [optional ship type]

Example : Ratufa Tr-03 Miner

Simple, efficient and descriptive



Fidtz

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on: February 24, 2017, 04:55:19 PM
Therefore, my current classification is as such :
[ship name] [material]-[slots] [optional ship type]

Example : Ratufa Tr-03 Miner

Simple, efficient and descriptive

I like this, since slots have a huge effect and their number is mostly volume based anyway.



Ohm is Futile

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on: March 01, 2017, 09:33:34 PM
Meh, I name my ships like this:

XYZ-### Name

XYZ is an acronym for the series the ship belongs to, which has to do with the purpose it was designed for.
### are numbers, with the first number distinguishing between different ships of the same series. Higher numbers are larger ships. The second number reflects major changes to an existing hull, it's still the same ship, but quite different. The last number is for smaller modifications, upgrades and such.

And then the name. Usually I'll pick a word category and go in order of "strength of the symbol". For example, my speedy combat ships are named Gale, Storm and Hurricane, in that order. The first number is also 1XX, 2XX and 3XX, with XX changing with regards to changes, upgrades, or major updates.

I sometimes add A, B, C, etc, after the numbers for what I'd call "sidegrades" or basically different options which can't necessarily be considered upgrades from each other.



DivineEvil

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on: March 02, 2017, 12:38:23 AM
I've ended up with combining my usual system leftover from Starmade and subduing to SageThe13th judgement partially, and now it looks like this:

(Name)-class (Class Acrostic)(V/M ratio)(Type/Role Acrostic)(Serial Greek)

(Name): A name of specific chassis design. Stands first as its often enough for identifying the ship.
(Class Acrostic): Usually three-letter shortcut for the ship's volume category. Based on current System slots bandwidth expanded in both ways to include the lighter ships with 1 slot and heavier ships with 15 slots. Omitted if used for civilian purposes.
[V/M]: Volume-to-Mass ratio as an integer. Generally describes the extent of protection and used to indicate different iterations of the same chassis.
(Type Acrostic): One-letter shortcut defining ship's intended role. Includes Assault, Bruiser, Carrier, Defense, Escort, Freighter, Miner, Support and Utility.
[Serial Greek]: A set of Greek numericals to indicate the number of chassis units built.

Example: Visage-class CRH-41D II (Visage-class Heavy Defense Cruiser II)
Your subconscious brain is currently busy identifying these words and their underlying meaning by the standards of the language. Your consciousness has no role in that process, just as it does not in anything you do. Frankly speaking, what you consider to be yourself is but a passive observer.



MagisD

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on: March 06, 2017, 11:51:48 PM
Wow, you guys get way to serious about this ..  I use animals

Hamster
Turtle
Ferret
Snake
Croc
Cow
Moose
Lion
Unicorn
Elephant
Shark
Whale

and colors for Material type AKA Tri - heavy armored is a Blue Turtle,  Current ship is a Yellow Unicorn ;-)