Author Topic: Ship class? Frigate / Corvette / Battleship?  (Read 27817 times)

Perq

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on: December 05, 2017, 02:33:24 PM
5U or 10U classification ain't that helpful either, since you can get more of those using computed cores.

All in all, is it really that important? Would it be easier to just have approx. volume of the ship?



WSY

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on: December 06, 2017, 07:11:04 PM
Perq, Ironically the same point you made against upgrade classification, also works against volume. Because upgrades are based on volume, but with computer cores a ships offensive and defensive capabilities can be drastically altered. Either 6 extra turrets or 140% more shields. Even hull or system blocks vs heavy armor; drastically different HP count and performance profile in the same "volume".

So inversely then volume doesn't give you that much of an idea either.

Honestly I think computer cores make such little difference EITHER way, that there is nothing wrong with using upgrade count or volume. I just think something simplified like an upgrade count gives a better idea of rough ship capability at a glance and strictly at a glance.  Add a rough description role and one can get a fast generalized idea. (such as if it has heavy armor, or hangars or is light and fast.)

If we want to go beyond that, then details come into play like checking ships specs such as HP, shield count, volume and mass as well as performance in Accel decel, top speed, hangar space etc..

However SageThe13th made a good point on material, a 13U Iron ship is going to be no where near as scary as a 9U Avorion ship.

Maybe then we could develop something like

[10i] (ship class) or [7a] (Ship Class).

As has been pointed out, the class of ship is easy to change, however for the purpose of downloads etc and at glance classification this may work.

What would be interesting is to come up with universal descriptives for roles:

Such as breaking down fast attack, where fast means does not use heavy armor or uses sparingly, and attack means more offensive upgrade focused vs battle carrier where battle means balance of offensive and defensive upgrades and carrier meaning over a percentage of the ship volume/mass being dedicated to hangar space. (Since as has also been pointed out, most ships would likely have "some" hangar space)



« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 07:15:00 PM by WSY »



SageThe13th

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on: December 31, 2017, 09:32:02 PM
Reading through this topic again I decided my simpler system was better.  Since, the naval classes are used in game and will be used to describe player designed NPC faction ships.  It's just too unhelpful to also try and use them describe my designs as well.

Thanks to everyone who's posted.  Your opinions were quite helpful.

Still haven't typed up the final version of my system.  But, I'm going describe all fighter designs with an f for the system slots and Ex (Extreme) for what I was calling slot 16.

Here's a list of ships I plan on building in the future.

Shape Wars (PvP):
1 Darkstar Av-15 War Sphere
2 Conformity Cube Av-15 War Cube
3 Attack Pyramid Av-15 War Prism
4 Star Dozer Av-15 War Wedge

The United Nations of Sol (UNS)/United Space Forces (USF):
1 Imperator class Xa-12 Warship
2 Lichtor class Xa-10 Warship
3 Pretorian class Xa-8 Warship
4 SB-17 Centurion Xa-f Bomber
5 SI-18 Legionnaire Xa-f Interceptor

Sellswords (Mercenaries):
1 Swordbreaker class Tr-11 Warship
2 Twinblade class Tr-9 Warship
3 SF-4 Trident Tr-f Fighter

Blues (Enforcers):
1 Hammerhead class Tr-11 Patrol Ship
2 Manta class Tr-7 Patrol Ship
3 SI-12e Marlin Tr-f Fighter

Mongrels (Pirates):
1 Hammerhead class Tr-11 Pirate Ship
2 Swordbreaker class Tr-11 Pirate Ship
3 Twinblade class Tr-9 Pirate Ship
4 Manta class Tr-7 Pirate Ship
5 SF-4p Trident Tr-f Pirate Fighter
6 SI-12p Marlin Tr-f Pirate Fighter
7 Hyena Tr-f Pirate Bomber
8 Jackal Tr-f Pirate Interceptor



SageThe13th

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on: January 03, 2018, 11:15:52 PM
Here's the final version of my system.  I'm curious if anyone can come up with some more ship roles I haven't covered.

Universal Ship Categorization System (U.S.C.S.)
Material code: Ir (Iron), Ti (Titanium), Na (Naonite), Tr (Trinium), Xa (Xanon), Og (Oganite), or Av (Avorion)

System slot code: 1-15, f, or EX

Role or Type: Whatever you want.  It can be descriptive or just cool sounding.

List the material code and system slot code separated by a hyphen/minus sign (-).  Add the ship’s role to the end.  Optionally, you can include the ship’s class at the front.

The material code is the highest tier material used in a ship's construction.

1 thru 15 is the number of slots a ship has, f is for labeling designs intended for fighters, and EX (EXtreme) is used to list ships that are at least 35% bigger than the volume needed to unlock slot 15.  EX ships warrant a more detailed look as there no upward limit and they can be absolutely massive.

Format: class MM-SS role

Basic Ship Roles:
This isn’t really part of the U.S.C.S. system.  But, this overview of basic ship roles may be helpful to you.

Fighters
Interceptor, fast anti-fighter weapons.
Bomber, slow anti-ship weapons.

Ships
Warship, designed for combat.  Focus on speed, armor, power, and shields.  There are three main subtypes.
   Fast Warship, focus on speed with light armor.  In naval terms frigates, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and battlecruisers are all this type of warship.
   Heavy Warship, focus on armor and shielding.  In naval terms corvettes, destroyers, battleships, and dreadnoughts are all this type of warship.
   Carrier, focus on hangar space.  In game you don’t give up much to add a hanger to a design.  So, most carrier designs are battlecarriers or battlestars; carriers with the firepower of a battleship.

Transport Ship, the name is pretty self explanatory.  There are four subtypes.
   Cargo Ship, focus on cargo space.  Ideal for traders.
   Blockade Runner, focus on cargo, speed, armor, and shields.  Designed to get goods through dangerous areas.
   Passenger Ship, focus on crew space.  It’s a bit of a niche, but it’s something you can build for.
   Troop Ship, focus on crew space, speed, armor, and shields.  These would be ideal for boarding actions when that feature is added.  Until then, these are the safest way to move crew around when trying to staff a larger ship that requires multiple trips to find recruits.

Utility Ship, general purpose ships that don’t have a focus.  One subtype.
   Mining Ship, Focus on armor and compact simple design.  This type of ship relies as much on exterior design as it does on internal systems.  It’s defenses focus on collision damage.  Since shields don’t stop collision damage there no need for strong shields.  Keeping the design simple, compact, and armored will make it easier to maneuver through asteroid fields and repair damage in case of a crash or scrape.

Again, if you can think of any other ship types.  I'd love to hear about them.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 11:17:41 PM by SageThe13th »



Hellatze

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on: January 06, 2018, 09:18:29 PM
Whatever the code / class

Battleship with small weapon are a sin.



WilsonMG

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on: March 30, 2018, 09:43:09 AM
One of the things that has always bothered me slightly in Avorion is when I come across NPC ships that are, for lack of a better description, out of the proper order in terms of ship classification.  It's been many months since I last played the game a lot, and it may have since been corrected, but one example that comes to mind is that Destroyers were classified as being larger and more powerful than Cruisers, and perhaps even Battleships as well, if memory serves.

The classification system I use in Avorion is based on a combination of real-world naval and sci-fi definitions, and can be used as a reference for ship classes in conjunction with the 15-slot System Upgrade mechanic in the game.  Regarding the placement of Battleships and Dreadnoughts I've chosen to go the sci-fi route due to the addition of Superdreadnoughts.  I also felt it necessary to include carriers to differentiate some of the larger ships that are primarily focused on providing fighter cover.

No. of Upgrade Slots - Class

01 - Runabout
02 - Yacht
03 - Cutter
04 - Corvette
05 - Frigate
06 - Destroyer
07 - Light Cruiser
08 - Cruiser
09 - Heavy Cruiser
10 - Battlecruiser / Escort Carrier
11 - Battleship / Light Carrier
12 - Dreadnought / Fleet Carrier
13 - Superdreadnought / Supercarrier
14 - Leviathan
15 - Titan
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 06:55:15 PM by WilsonMG »



Kamo

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on: March 30, 2018, 12:23:05 PM
The Cuddle Idolatric Initiative uses a kind-of slapdash system for its military ships, primarily based on hull health and combat worth.
  • Flak Corvette – 2 100 HP at Titanium grade
  • Line Corvette – 5 250 HP
  • Light Cruiser – 21 000 HP
  • Heavy Cruiser – 52 500 HP
  • Light Destroyer – 210 000 HP
  • Heavy Destroyer – 525 000 HP
  • Superdestroyer – 2 100 000 HP
  • Titan – 5 250 000 HP
The basis is « 10 000 hull at Titanium grade is the limit between Line Corvette and Light Cruiser » and there’s a multiplier of ten between each two designations. Each material increasing the norma by 40%.
However, every CII ship is tested at the Bedridden Scrolls Arena against its predecessor from the previous grade, and its neighboring ships to assert its "final" designation, explaining how the 1 500 HP Irongrade Achital Mark II could get Line Corvette status despite having Flak Corvette health.

CII military ship-builiding efforts will also be limited by the sum of game difficulty and available material, based on "Flak Corvette" for Beginner difficulty and Iron material (so, on my actual Easy galaxy, I’ll limit myself to Iron Line Corvettes, Titanium Light Cruisers, Naonite Heavy Cruisers, and so on till Avorion Titans, then on the next Medium galaxy I’ll make Iron Light Cruisers to Ogonite Titans, etc.).
(The Irongrade Heavy Cruiser "Misao" begin an exception on lesser-than-Hard difficulties because of its essential role.)

The "Scout Ship" designation beneath "Flak Corvette" has become severely controversial since the Persecutors and Torpedoes’ apparition. Since guided long-range Torpedoes are ubiquitous Scout Ships cannot scout at all nor oversee battles from afar (which were the main uses of Scout Ships), and Scout Ships may also be killed by Persecutors while shuttling crew through known systems: so people may see next generation Scout Ships as specialized speed-focused Light Cruisers instead of "semi-military" Flak Corvettes.
Another military designation has been recently added, the Persecutor class, which is focused on torpedo-based norma.
  • Iron: 1 torpedo shaft, 20 torpedo storage.
  • Titanium: 2 torpedo shafts, 50 torpedo storage.
  • Naonite: 4 torpedo shafts, 200 torpedo storage.
And so on, shaft number doubling and storage following the x4/x2.5 rule. So it's safe to assume that Persecutor ships will grow from Iron Flak Corvettes, Titanium Line Corvettes, Naonite Light Cruisers and so on~ (though the Iron Persecutor prototype is to be classified as a Line Corvette by health norma, but it was to be expected, as making non-Line Corvette Iron ships is difficult).

For civilian ships, the CII has even laxer norma. "Scavenger" ships are little more than manned and slightly bigger starter drone ships made to scavenge wreckage to reduce lag, and eventually mine, though miner scavengers will need an escort to avoid Persecution.
"War Scavenger" ships are more defensive and rigged with small cargo holds to scavenge haulers killed by local enforcing ships.
"Buses", made to carry crew, have as only norma the assumption to be able to carry enough crew to crew a Heavy Station of the same material. Being able to carry enough crew for eleven (not ten, as the eleventh’ worth is made of "hierarchy") would grant the currenly-hypothetical "Heavy Bus" class instead, if stations or ships big enough would be designed.
"Cargo" ships have a fixed norma of "2 000 units cargo hold", with the exception of Irongrade cargo ships which are composed of a smaller "gate-shuttle" cargo and a bigger but expensive "offgrid-jumper" cargo, because of pure millefeuille-based reactors’ price. If stations start to ever store more than 25 000 units of a product, 10 000-unit cargo hold "Heavy Cargo" norma will be instated.

For stations, CII normae are based around production and cargo hold.
  • "Ordinary Stations" need to have 220 + 100 times their material code (Titanium equalling 0) production value, and a 6 000 units cargo hold.
  • "Heavy Stations" need to have 520 + 200 times their material code production value, and a 8 000 units cargo hold, and needs to be "appropriately bigger".
  • "Trading Posts" need to have 60 + 50 times their material code production value, and a 60 000 units cargo hold (so, 2 500 for each 24 products, hopefully).
  • "Utility Stations" such as resource depots and other stations that do not produce any goods nor store many goods, need to have 60 + 50 times their material code production value, and a 2 000 units cargo hold, but even that small norma is very lax, allowing designs such as the JoeBar to continue existing.

In the future, the hierarchy of Buses would also be extended to contain bus classes which would serve to carry as much people as possible to the limit of being crewable by the previous bus’ maximum crew capacity. Therefore:
  • Heavy Bus – Projected 2 500 crew capacity for 420 crew requirement, but since 1 000 crew capacity buses have been made the crew capacity may be 150% higher, so 6 250.
  • Light Macrotransfer Ship – Projected 50 000 crew capacity for 5 880 crew requirement
  • Heavy Macrotransfer Ship – Projected 600 000 crew capacity for 47 040 crew requirement
  • Light Colony Ship – Projected 12 000 000 crew capacity for 564 480 crew requirement
  • Medium Colony Ship – Projected 600 000 000 crew capacity for 11 289 600 crew requirement
  • Heavy Colony Ship – Projected 45 000 000 000 crew capacity for 282 240 000 crew requirement
As one may imagine, Heavy Macrotransfer Ships would be big enough to classify as Titans, Light Colony Ships would dwarf them by having nine times as much health as the Titanium titan norma, and Heavy Colony Ships would be able to carry several planets' worth of population.
Once the CII is able to field enough Colony Ships and other ships to efficiently move three quarters of the galaxy’s entire sentient population in less than a week, the CII will declare themselves ready for the Galactic Core Event 8).
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 02:46:51 PM by Kamo »
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WilsonMG

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on: March 30, 2018, 06:32:46 PM
That is certainly an interesting system you use.  Absolutely no offense intended, but while certainly detailed, your system doesn't really follow traditional naval classifications based on ship size.  Without getting into specialized roles, in general, Destroyers are slightly larger than Frigates, and smaller than Light Cruisers.

If you'll look at the system I use, it is in the "proper" order, if you will, with the exception that, in reality, Dreadnoughts were merely an older, smaller type of Battleship, used around the time of WWI.  That said, I chose to lean on the fact that in most popular sci-fi universes and games, the term has come to signify a ship larger than a Battleship.

I did take some artistic license with the use of the term "Leviathan", but I thought it fit well since it is derived from Jewish mythology and means "giant sea monster" (counterpart to Behemoth, the giant land monster).  I also felt that having another mythological term on the list lent more relevance to the appearance of the term "Titan", because while Titan, from Greek mythology, is often used in games to classify the largest ships, the term does not have much meaning as a ship classification other than its popularity.

It's my hope that someday Koonschi can find the time to sort out the classifications for NPC ships, so they follow a more appropriate order.

In regards to a ship's material composition, I didn't feel it worth mentioning previously, but since you brought it up and someone may find it useful to have a very simple system, I use the following:

A variant designation of "Mk I-VII" signifies general overall progression and is based on the primary material composition of the hull and armor, followed by the ship's primary material composition for internal systems and weapons potential, where the letters "a-g" are used.

Iron - I/a
Titanium - II/b
Naonite - III/c
Trinium - IV/d
Xanion - V/e
Ogonite - VI/f
Avorion - VII/g

Examples:

Runabout IIc = 1-slot, Titanium Hull/Armor, Naonite Internal Systems and Weapons Potential
Cruiser Mk IVe = 8-slot, Trinium Hull/Armor, Xanion Internal Systems and Weapons Potential
Titan Mk VIg = 15-slot, Ogonite Hull/Armor, Avorion Internal Systems and Weapons Potential
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 06:52:34 PM by WilsonMG »



SageThe13th

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on: March 30, 2018, 07:15:21 PM
Avorion's in built system it still messed up.  It goes:
Corvette
Frigate
Cruiser
Destroyer
Dreadnought
Battleship

Most people would, as has been pointed out many times, put cruisers above destroyers and dreadnoughts above battleships.

Dreadnought was never really an official classification in real life.  But rather a pattern of building battleships with a centralized gun line that became the focus of the design.  Dreadnought continued to be used as a slang term along with the rather confusing battlewagon to describe battleships in WWII since by then they were all being built according to the dreadnought pattern.  Superdreadnought was a slang term used to describe even bigger battleships, as ship designs increased in size drastically during the war.

Battlecruisers are an interesting case as well.  Most people don't realize that they were actually bigger than battleships in term of length a lot of time.  However, lighter armor placed them below battleships because Navies go by displacement.  You could pull this of in Avorion as well.  Having a battlecruiser at the same slot size as a battleship but giving the battlecruiser trinium armor and the battleship organite.

I don't use the term Titan for ships in my fictional worlds it's always used as a term for the largest type of mech.  But, to each there own.



WilsonMG

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on: March 30, 2018, 08:54:45 PM
I would keep Battlecruiser and Battleship separated and in that order just to differentiate them in Avorion without having to come up with more unrealistic terms for the other classes.

With 15 classifications to define, it can get downright silly coming up with terms to fill out the list, especially considering that after a certain point in Avorion the ship volumes start to scale exponentially and there just aren't that many traditional naval terms to differentiate ship classes based on displacement/size.  I'm trying to keep my classifications as realistic as possible, while working within the parameters of the game.

In traditional navies, deviation from one nation--in this case, player--to the next was not uncommon, with some Frigates exceeded the length or displacement of another nation's Destroyers, and so on, so worrying that one player's ship is different in terms of length, size, statistics, etc. doesn't matter much to me as long as it has the same number of System Upgrade slots.  Those System Upgrades define the relevant hard statistics and weapon capabilities within a set range, anyway.

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of the purely fictional Leviathan and Titan terms, either, but without adding in even more Cruisers to the middle--which already vary a good deal in my classification system--you'd have to come up with some terms on the little end or the big end and there's just not much room for change on the little end, so that leaves the big end, where traditional naval terms are completely lacking...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 04:38:27 AM by WilsonMG »



SageThe13th

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on: March 31, 2018, 05:50:14 AM
Obviously, it's easy to run out of names with 15 slots to fill.  Though, if you look what volumes slots unlock you can see slots unlock with increasingly smaller volume increase percentages as ships get bigger.

System Slot Code
f – <= 200 blocks, intended as a fighter design
1 – < 51 k m3
2 – 51 k m3
3 – 128 k m3, 151 % increase
4 – 320 k m3, 150 % increase
5 – 800 k m3, 150 % increase
6 – 2,000 k m3, 150 % increase
7 – 5,000 k m3, 150 % increase
8 – 12,500 k m3, 150 % increase
9 – 19,764 k m3, 58 % increase
10 – 31,250 k m3, 58 % increase
11 – 43,065 k m3, 38 % increase
12 – 59,348 k m3, 38 % increase
13 – 78,125 k m3, 32 % increase
14 – 107,554 k m3, 38 % increase
15 – 148,371 k m3, 38 % increase
Ex – >= 200,000 k m3, 135 % increase

This led me to the idea of combining two slots for larger ship roles.  So, I get this system.

Strike Craft
Interceptor, armed with anti-fighter and anti-torpedo weapons.  Anti-fighter guns, point defense chainguns, or point defense lasers.
Fighter, armed with general purpose weapons.  Chainguns, bolters, plasma, lasers, pulse cannons, or tesla guns.
Bomber, armed with anti-ship weapons.  Cannons, railguns, launchers, or lightning guns. 

Patrol Ships
1, Gunship
2, Cutter

Escort Ships
3, Corvette
4, Frigate
5, Destroyer

Pseudo Capital Ships
6, Light Cruiser/Escort Carrier
7, Heavy Cruiser/Assault Carrier

Legitimate Capital Ships
8-9, Battlecruiser/Light Carrier
10-11, Battleship/Medium Carrier
12-13, Dreadnaught/Heavy Carrier

Super Capital Ships
14-15, Superdreadnaught/Supercarrier
Ex, Command Ship/Mothership

I still think this approach is less helpful and less versatile than the U.S.C. System I posted earlier.  But, it has certain uses for a Stempunk faction I'm thinking of, since they would use naval terms.



dopp

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on: March 31, 2018, 06:15:55 AM
The biggest oddball in naval classification is the frigate. In sailing ship days, the frigate was a medium-sized warship used for "cruiser warfare" (scouting, long-range patrol, anti-piracy, raiding). There were even exceptionally-powerful frigates (e.g. USS Constitution) that were considered equal to a small ship of the line (battleship). When steamships came along, the "frigate" concept was renamed into the "cruiser" we all know and love. Then came WW2, where there was a need for a small, slow, cheap anti-submarine convoy escort. These ships became the modern frigate, much smaller (usually) than a destroyer.

Since sci-fiction draws inspiration from different eras of naval combat (broadside-firing capital ships, starfighter carriers, missile boats, ramships, and boarding vessels all coexist), the frigate can appear as both a small escort vessel or a large independent warship, depending on setting.

Then we have destroyers. These were once small and cheap escorts, designed to fend off enemy torpedo attacks and (eventually) launch torpedo attacks of their own. But they became so useful as general-purpose warships that after WW2 they essentially replaced the cruiser as the independent, long-range warship. Modern destroyers are at least the size of WW2 light cruisers, and the bigger ones like the USS Zumwalt are almost the size of the largest WW2 heavy cruisers.

In sci-fiction, the issue is further muddled by the "Star Destroyer" of Star Wars, which clearly fulfills a battleship/carrier role and is bigger than the various corvettes, frigates, and even cruisers in the setting. This has led to games like the X-series having "destroyers" as slow, tough, gun-armed warships. I suspect Avorion is the same, since it makes destroyers much bigger than cruisers.


In reality, Dreadnoughts were merely an older, smaller type of Battleship, used around the time of WWI.  That said, I chose to lean on the fact that in most popular sci-fi universes and games, the term has come to signify a ship larger than a Battleship.

It's the other way around. The HMS Dreadnought was considered so much more powerful that all designs before it became known as "pre-dreadnought" battleships and everything after as "dreadnought" (and later "super-dreadnought") battleships. After WW1, terms like "fast battleship" (HMS Queen Elizabeth) and ultimately "super battleship" (Japanese Battleship Yamato) came about as even more powerful designs were built, but they are all considered "dreadnoughts" as well (super-super-dreadnoughts, I guess).

In sci-fiction, the term is used in its original sense to denote a particularly powerful (and revolutionary) battleship class.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 02:39:51 PM by dopp »



Kamo

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on: April 01, 2018, 02:39:22 PM
The main naval classifications in Avorion stem from the most popular sci-fi games at the time:
  • The X-Series, which have M2 "destroyers" and M1 "carriers", which have the roles of "destroying everything" and "carrying a lot of ships"
  • The FreeSpace series, which effectively inverts cruisers and destroyers by making the destroyers the bigger ships.
  • Elite: Dangerous, which more or less handwaves "capital ship class" and "battlecruiser" for anything bigger than a regular (player-driven) ship that flies and jumps.
Apparently (difficult to see grey on white background :'(!), Wing Commander didn't invert and got designations more-or-less right :) ! But that detail probably vanished from some people's memories as the last game in the series was in 1998 (excluding Saga), while FreeSpace covered years 1998 and 1999 and got an editor that allowed people to make mods, especially when its source code was launched.

The cruiser-destroyer inversion is probably due to role discrepancy, destroyers being an abbreviation of Torpedo Boat Destroyers, escort ships that would escort bigger ships to detect and destroy incoming torpedoes and the boats that fired 'em, usually submarines.
But in most sci-fi game franchises (excluding Wing Commander), destroyers happen to be capital ships that are supposed to be specialized in destroying things ::), which then logically means having the most weaponry, therefore "being the baddest mother****er around" 8), so generally being bigger than a "mere" cruiser that it is now supposed to destroy.
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SageThe13th

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on: April 02, 2018, 05:17:27 PM
Star Trek also uses more proper roles, some of the original creators were in the military after all, but it's not focused on war so most people probably don't know.  Federation ships are roles are as follows.

Scout
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Dreadnought

Interestingly, Federation Heavy Cruisers are a match for Klingon Battlecruisers in TOS and by TNG era are actually superior.

Star Wars and other popular games are probably the reason some people think destroyers are bigger than cruisers.  However, it's odd that in Avorion the battleship is the biggest ship type above dreadnought.  Since, most Sci-Fi use dreadnoughts as the biggest type of battleship.



WilsonMG

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on: April 02, 2018, 10:48:55 PM
Just because the X game series and FreeSpace series both got it wrong doesn't make it right in Avorion... 8)