Author Topic: The Cube Meta and How You're Helping To Enforce It  (Read 20252 times)

rakenan

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on: July 18, 2018, 03:42:35 PM
If we actually want to discourage cube ships, there are plenty of options.

1. Make local damage not respect block size. A 1 meter thick armor plate that's 100 square kilometers in area is just as easy to penetrate as a 1 meter thick armor plate that's 10 square meters in area. Let blocks be partially disabled by concentrated fire.

2. Require (or at least strongly reward) some blocks to be distant from the center of mass of the ship. Thrusters are too effective when close to center of mass if we don't want cube ships.  If a cube ship, even with all of its outer layers composed entirely of thrusters, had rotten turn radius, and instead required long pylons to give the thrusters leverage to turn its massive bulk, that would discourage tightly compacted ships, especially cubes.

3. Have components generate heat, and have to radiate it out to space. Yes, you'd end up with cubes covered with spikes, until local damage shoots off enough of the spikes to let the ship's waste heat cook its crew.

I don't know that any of these options are good ones, but they all would have some effect to reduce the relative power of cubes vs. everything else. As long as compact structure, small surface area, and large solid blocks are favored, cubes will dominate.



Riftmaster

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on: July 30, 2018, 01:56:47 AM
Give server owners/moderators the power to grant additional armor effectiveness, shielding, and/or other bonuses to player ships that look nice and non-cube?

Granted, for that to work it would require good server moderators, but...




Warrax

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on: October 11, 2018, 04:37:31 AM

1.  Make it so NPC stations sell designs that the player can buy in game.


I love this idea.
Ship designs:  The Crab, Tie Interceptor,  Aurum,  Audaces, Avaris, and  Aegoran
Go to: Trimaran Hull Designs



wander

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on: December 10, 2018, 10:58:43 AM
I've always built my ships in a cube shape, for one simple reason.

Cube-shaped ships are easier to edit, in particular, easier to upgrade.

If I want to attach, say, a hangar to one of the ships I see on the steam workshop, I might as well scrap the ship and use a different one.

But with a cube-shaped ship, its perfectly doable. Cube-shaped ships are modular, you can easily swap out bits, upgrade things, etc.

That is THE reason I use cube ships.

Not any of this stuff about surface-area-to-volume ratio, or armor plat HP, or similar.

Simple ease of editing.

If you want to discourage cube-shaped ships, then you need to make it easier to edit/refit/upgrade ships.

Start out by giving us better control of the editing camera. Editing something inside my ship should not be so hard.

Alternatively, forget about the idea of making ships pretty. Avorion is a primarily single-player game. Even in multiplayer, the universe is vast, and I will never see most other players' ship.

How ships look doesn't really matter. Practical concerns are vastly more important. We're building warships here, not luxury liners.



DivineEvil

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on: December 11, 2018, 07:07:30 AM
I've always built my ships in a cube shape, for one simple reason.

Cube-shaped ships are easier to edit, in particular, easier to upgrade.

If I want to attach, say, a hangar to one of the ships I see on the steam workshop, I might as well scrap the ship and use a different one.

But with a cube-shaped ship, its perfectly doable. Cube-shaped ships are modular, you can easily swap out bits, upgrade things, etc.

That is THE reason I use cube ships.
Not any of this stuff about surface-area-to-volume ratio, or armor plat HP, or similar.

Simple ease of editing.
That's a reason to use ships with low block count. Shape of the ship has no bearing on that really.
Besides, even if the ship exterior is extremely complex, if it is built in few blocks on the inside, it is still possible to easily modify it.

Quote
If you want to discourage cube-shaped ships, then you need to make it easier to edit/refit/upgrade ships.

Start out by giving us better control of the editing camera. Editing something inside my ship should not be so hard.
You're always welcome to give specific suggestion on how that process can be made more convenient. From where I see it, its something the ship designers might consider themselves, and not something one should shove to the developers, who already made good building tools with very few apparent problems.

Quote
Alternatively, forget about the idea of making ships pretty. Avorion is a primarily single-player game. Even in multiplayer, the universe is vast, and I will never see most other players' ship. How ships look doesn't really matter. Practical concerns are vastly more important. We're building warships here, not luxury liners.
Tell that to the people, who spend weeks building absolutely amazing designs. These are warships also, but people build them for other people, who can't spare that time or have no aptitude to build them, but want to use pretty ships still. These people answer accordingly, which is why beautiful ships get the top ratings across the board.

Whether another player will ever see your or someone's else beautiful ship is largely irrelevant, because that's what you want to look at. Everyone has the ability to make modular designs, where internal components can be replaced block-by-block to fit the expectations of the player using the ship etc, but even then it has little to do with meta-game.
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wander

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on: December 11, 2018, 08:15:41 AM
I appreciate the work people put into beautiful ship designs on the workshop. When getting my friend into the game, they really helped him enormously.

I've just found workshop ships really hard to edit, let alone upgrade. My friend largely gave up trying to edit his ship, he just made it bigger and strapped extra things to the outside. Most steam workshop designs aren't modular at all. They're not designed to be something you can upgrade, or even edit really. Replacing internal components is tough, chiefly due to the difficulty of getting the camera to do what you want. For example, try selecting a block deep inside a ship. Its hard. You have to find some angle and zoom where you can get close enough through the ship to select it. Forget simply moving your camera freely - that, as far as I am aware, doesn't exist, and it should.

In some of my avorion play sessions, the camera has given me more trouble than groups of enemy ships.

If the game simply let us move the camera however we wanted, ship design would be much easier.



DivineEvil

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on: December 11, 2018, 11:37:35 AM
I appreciate the work people put into beautiful ship designs on the workshop. When getting my friend into the game, they really helped him enormously.

I've just found workshop ships really hard to edit, let alone upgrade. My friend largely gave up trying to edit his ship, he just made it bigger and strapped extra things to the outside. Most steam workshop designs aren't modular at all. They're not designed to be something you can upgrade, or even edit really. Replacing internal components is tough, chiefly due to the difficulty of getting the camera to do what you want. For example, try selecting a block deep inside a ship. Its hard. You have to find some angle and zoom where you can get close enough through the ship to select it. Forget simply moving your camera freely - that, as far as I am aware, doesn't exist, and it should. In some of my avorion play sessions, the camera has given me more trouble than groups of enemy ships.

If the game simply let us move the camera however we wanted, ship design would be much easier.
That is true. For the most parts people just use way too many blocks to outline every detail - that's what bugs me the most. When a ship features thousands of blocks, where it could look nearly as good if made by few hundreds, given some deliberate limits to resolution (few or no blocks less than 1 in any dimension is a good start), it makes it hard to to make any mods. The relatively recent function of hiding blocks (which shows only specific blocks) on its own allows to work on internal components without messing with ship's hull. Focused-based camera is really not that bad. However, I've also noticed many ships has severely fragmented systems too, which cannot be worked around.

So for me the problem is mostly with that most players do not pre-plan their builds, and therefore have to add extra system blocks multiple times to achieve balance. The only reason I'm not uploading my own designs to Steam is because I want to release some of them together with the Google Spreadsheet toolkit for pre-planning and pre-balancing the design... and finishing it is tough, because mining the values manually is pretty tiring. There's of course some of them on wiki, but they are insufficient or even outdated:
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 11:46:51 AM by DivineEvil »
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Speed

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on: February 14, 2019, 07:54:54 AM

Quote
If you want to discourage cube-shaped ships, then you need to make it easier to edit/refit/upgrade ships.

Start out by giving us better control of the editing camera. Editing something inside my ship should not be so hard.
You're always welcome to give specific suggestion on how that process can be made more convenient. From where I see it, its something the ship designers might consider themselves, and not something one should shove to the developers, who already made good building tools with very few apparent problems.
It's quite simple, actually.  We need a "hide specific block" option.  When you use the hide specific block option, all blocks you presently have selected get hidden.  This way, you can bore down to the center of your ship and edit exactly what you need to.

Also, the problem with the hide block options right now is that when you hide a blocks, you can't place blocks on the other side of the blocks you have hidden.  Hidden blocks should not block your ability to place of new blocks!!! I'm NOT talking about removing the restriction that two blocks cannot occupy the same space.  I'm talking about the fact that you can't actually place a block where it would fit and there's nothing in the way, simply because there's a hidden block between where your camera is and the place you are trying to put the block.   
 That's BS.  If I delete a block in the center of my ship, I shouldn't be forced to zoom my camera all the way in to the void I created in order to place the replacement blocks!!!  AND NO, converting the block to a new block is not good enough.  Sometimes you need to delete a large block and replace to with multiple smaller ones.

We need to be able to  hide specific blocks, not just specific block types.
And hidden blocks between your camera and where you want to place new blocks should not prevent you from placing the new blocks.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 07:59:58 AM by Speed »



DivineEvil

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on: February 19, 2019, 01:58:33 PM
It's quite simple, actually.  We need a "hide specific block" option.  When you use the hide specific block option, all blocks you presently have selected get hidden.  This way, you can bore down to the center of your ship and edit exactly what you need to.
Well, I usually just hide all blocks aside from one I'm interested in and replace it, or I remove it and highlight another block nearby to use it to place new blocks on.

Also, the problem with the hide block options right now is that when you hide a blocks, you can't place blocks on the other side of the blocks you have hidden.  Hidden blocks should not block your ability to place of new blocks!!! I'm NOT talking about removing the restriction that two blocks cannot occupy the same space.
That is incorrect. You can place the blocks trough the hidden ones easily. You just cannot clearly see where you're placing them, because the placement ghost is overridden by the hidden blocks still, but it uses the same placement logic as usual. Its a matter of figuring out what blocks are adjacent to the ones needed to be replaced and using their faces to place new blocks.
Every Human Being Must Watch This Video At Least Once:
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