Author Topic: Make all weapons capable of Independent Targeting if they have gunners  (Read 4864 times)

Sable Phoenix

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I don't see any reason that Independent Targeting should be such a rare property on weapons in addition to being penalized by costing damage.  Why the heck do we even hire gunners if we are still required to still fire our weapons manually?

All weapons should be able to fire manually with no gunners, and all weapons that have gunners assigned to them should be able to set independent targeting active, with no penalty to damage.  Given that the the independent targeting will be hitting multiple targets at once, rather than massing its firepower on a single target, fights will tend take longer in general and your ship will be taking proportionally more damage over the course of the battle, which should be enough of a tradeoff for the flexibility of being able to target things outside of your forward cone.

In addition to making things like mining and salvaging unnecessarily tedious and taxing to the hand and wrist, the rarity and penalties associated with independent targeting weaponry is a severe restriction on ship design; it highly incentivizes placing all your weapons at the front of your ship since most of the weapons will only fire when you tell them to and thus will only fire where you're looking.



thedamngod

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Older discussion on gunners and independent targeting: http://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,1147.0.html
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SageThe13th

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Okay I'm going to have to disagree with past me a little bit here.  Every turret should be able to target independently without requiring a special trait.  And the fact that the trait currently makes the turret do less damage makes it even weirder since splitting your fire is already sub-optimal in my opinion.



nasabot

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I agree. Nothing more to say. For mining and salvaging the autoturret makes sense, but in combat? No.



cy414

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for gameplay reasons, i agree turrets should all be capable of auto-firing BUT, i dont agree that player ability should be completely removed.
making sure turrets have no target prediction when auto-firing would achieve that.
possibly an accuracy/track speed(slower traverse etc) penalty as well.

excused by the idea that the player controls the main targeting systems, but when auto-firing, guncrews use local targeting systems.



Sable Phoenix

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I didn't say anything about player ability being removed.  Independent targeting shouldn't replace the ability to manually direct and fire your weapons.  Why would I want that?  Presumably, while using direct targeting, you as the ship's captain are issuing commands personally to the fire control computer.  This is why I suggest that weapons should be operable without gunnery crews, but only in manual control mode.

I debated including the idea that there should be an accuracy reduction for independent targeting weapons, then nixed the idea.  There should be no penalties at all for that property included in the weapon itself.  If my approach is taken, and the weapons require crew to achieve independent targeting, meaning you need to pay them and maintain life support and crew quarters for them.  Additionally, as I mentioned before, the weapons that are targeting independently will be spreading their damage between multiple targets, meaning a higher time-to-kill per target than a focused barrage.  Those two drawbacks should represent plenty of opportunity cost for the convenience of being able to cover multiple firing arcs at once, and avoid the real world stressor of holding down your mouse button.



SageThe13th

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Turrets should still require gunners if only for balance reasons.  I'll reiterate something I said in the other topic.  The reticle you have is more of a command pointer.  It doesn't aim the guns.  The crew still has to do that.  This could change with proper fixed weapons though.



Sable Phoenix

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What balance reasons?



SageThe13th

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What balance reasons?

Upkeep cost.  That's the primary reason for the crew mechanics.  Rather than having to pay for things like fuel and ammo the game just charges you for crew.



Cralis

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I agree that all turrets should be capable of independent fire. And it shouldn't reduce their damage. What it should cost is _energy_. Why? To be capable of  independent fire, the turret needs separate fire control. Separate fire control costs energy.

It's basically the same how weapons work on naval ships today. The number of weapons/missiles a ship can fire is limited by the number of fire control channels it has available (yes, yes there are exceptions. work with me here.)

So where is the balance? Presumably when the independent fire algorithm is working right, you are going to be limited to simple filters like "closest enemy in arc" or "largest enemy in range." That or you will have to designate each and every target. OR you can take manual control for more... precise and/or focused fire targeting needs.

The bottom line is that for very large ships manual control is silly. It means that I will control my super star destroyer as if it was a tie fighter. And it means that I can't build a realistic starship with weapons covering multiple arcs of fire and instead will habe them all facing front. It defeats the whole purpose of being able to build monster battleships... especially when you can build ships that are physically larger than the range of some weapons! And it just feels wrong to be forced to fly that super star destroyer like a tie fighter. 




AURAequine

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Here's an idea regarding this which will also give the computing cores additional use, what if turrets with independent accuracy were kept as they were, but those without could have them turned on, but with poor accuracy and prediction.

However, with more computer cores, the weapons have more processing power and thus their accuracy is increased to roughly less or the same of the accuracy of turrets with that targeting trait? Though that is of course, depend on the volume of the computer cores.

These turrets paired with the computer cores will have more power than the independent turrets, but to make them the most useful you'd require computer cores in the first place, which is Trinium and upwards, making this synergy more of a mid to late game advantage. In addition, the computer cores do use more energy, so there's that factor as well.



DotSplat

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how about the level of the gunners having impact on the gun that they're stationed at?  un-trained have 40% accuracy, level 1 have 60% accuracy, level 2 have 80%, and level 3 have 100% accuracy.  not having enough crew means no auto-targetting for that gun and poor accuracy.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:10:21 PM by DotSplat »



CageHunter

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I disagree with the idea of adding independent targeting to all turrets. In real milititary weaponry there are also weapon systems that can fire indepently but there are as well those ones that need a central to fire. Both need personnel to be operated. (i.e. artillery)
Applied on the game's turret scheme there are some turrets that can fire indepently because they have the required electronics onboard and those ones Who don't.
I believe this versatility makes the game more challenging. If you want to have auto fire turrets only then go out and find them!



severeene

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in my oppionion, independent targeting should be the job of your computer core (the volume increase for additional module slots feel not right imho)

the more computing  power you get the more turrets you can set to autofire - this could be combined with the amount of turret slots you get - so no need for this artificial +x turrets modules - you get the capability you build for

could work something like this:
computer core provides processing power based on size/mats
you need a baseline for every turret to be operated which defines the available turretslots (manuel targeting)
additional processing power can be used to set turrets to autofire
offline turrets only take no or reduced prozessing power, so you could use your ability for combat, mining (core could be used to influence jump calculation time too)
crew is used to operate and maintain the turret, so no change here

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:42:35 PM by severeene »



Mattoropael

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I disagree with the idea of adding independent targeting to all turrets. In real milititary weaponry there are also weapon systems that can fire indepently but there are as well those ones that need a central to fire. Both need personnel to be operated. (i.e. artillery)
Applied on the game's turret scheme there are some turrets that can fire indepently because they have the required electronics onboard and those ones Who don't.
I believe this versatility makes the game more challenging. If you want to have auto fire turrets only then go out and find them!

This is what you hired gunners for. You don't pay them to aim the guns only at the direction your magic pointer points at. You expect them to target the thing you specified (i.e. Attack Target) or, if given the "fire at will" command (i.e. Autofire), fire at whatever the hell they think they should. On the contrary I can very well argue that non-independent guns shouldn't require gunners, because you're doing all the crap that they should logically be doing for you anyway.

A ship's captain doesn't do all the things himself, especially not painstakingly handholding his gunners about where exactly to train the ship's weapons on.