Author Topic: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods  (Read 25403 times)

Wayleran

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on: January 20, 2018, 01:18:29 AM
Something I noticed is that the listed sell value of system upgrades is different than how much you actually get from selling them. I found a high end upgrade that said it sold for about 90k but I got over 300k for selling it, for example.

UPDATE: Yeah that was a problem. It was only affecting the price shown in the GUI not the actually amount you received. I fixed it however in Version 0.15.7.2a so please download that and install over the other version from like a couple hours ago. LOL :)


Version 0.15.7.2a is now available.

I fixed a bug where only the shown price in the GUI was affected and not the amount you received. I also reduced the sell price reduction to 50% instead of 25%.

I also drastically modified the volumes of goods to be either vanilla or maybe ~2x and in rare circumstances ~3x. I think a lot of people found the volume mod to be way too much and made getting credits for things like stations and stuff feel too grindy. So I went back down quite a bit and this should only SLIGHTLY reduce our insane raiding profits and balance out the economy a little.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 01:48:49 AM by Wayleran »



Ravien

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on: January 20, 2018, 05:23:53 AM
Thank you for both changes!



Wayleran

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on: January 20, 2018, 08:47:43 PM
Thank you for both changes!

No, thank YOU for pointing them out. Hehe.

TBH, big oversight on my part about the prices only being changed in the GUI. Duh!!! :P

Hope you enjoy the mods and please continue to leave feedback and look for new versions/updates/fixes.



Wayleran

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on: January 20, 2018, 08:53:36 PM
I've written a couple of small mods to remove AI fighters from the game because in my opinion all they do is add issues to the game AND are nearly impossible to kill.

They can wipe out sectors because of the fact they'll persist after their carrier is gone and slowly widdle away at any stations/ships in the sector.

So my question is whether you guys would like those mods too? Killing AI fighters is very tedious and they cause more problems than they're worth IMHO, so let me know. I'm thinking of either releasing a standalone mod for them or including a separate mod in the individual "Galaxy Mods" download and NOT putting them in the "Modpack" in case people really don't want that change.

Ok, thanks guys. All feedback is welcomed.



Ravien

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on: January 20, 2018, 11:07:02 PM
I think making it an optional download would be awesome. That is a good fix until the combat update happens that gives us actual anti-fighter weapons. While it's pretty cool watching the AI use fighters in their big faction battles, I think people would appreciate that mod.



Wayleran

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on: January 20, 2018, 11:58:28 PM
I think making it an optional download would be awesome. That is a good fix until the combat update happens that gives us actual anti-fighter weapons. While it's pretty cool watching the AI use fighters in their big faction battles, I think people would appreciate that mod.

I'm going to release version 0.15.7.3 tonight or tomorrow and I'll include in the "Galaxy Mods" folder a separate install file for "No AI Fighters" that will mod the xsotan, shipgenerator and asyncshipgenerator files to spawn "Carriers" with 0 hangars, meaning of course 0 fighters. That was the best and most stable way I found to do that.

Also just a heads up I was thinking of ONLY releasing the "Galaxy Mods" folder with all the mods separately and not have the confusing "Modpack" one too because some people weren't quite sure the difference and a lot of people I know want to pick and choose what mods to use anyways.

Ok thanks.



Shrooblord

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on: January 21, 2018, 01:01:25 AM
BTW, in the default script for the goods index it clearly is stated by the dev that...

"-- This file was generated automatically with a tool."

So they are WAY WAY out of balance due to that "tool" just spitting out numbers for the volumes and prices of goods. There's no real logic to it and no balance to profits you can acquire... So I do think it needs to be balanced through a mod, but yeah it's more than likely overkill on my part for this rough pass...so please give me as much feedback as you can, but keep in mind you can and will still see VAST profits even with those changes. But I will tweak them as the community sees fit.
No, I don't think that's what "generated with a tool" means. I think it means the list was compiled by a tool, i.e. pulling together a bunch of resources on what are goods for trade and putting them all into one, concise list, rather than the tool "randomly" generating all the values for the goods. I could be wrong, though, of course, but that makes more sense to my mind than the alternative.

Either way, I'd like to see the goods tweaked so that the higher tier goods are more like what you propose, but lower tier are left untouched. Simple water, for example, takes up a lot of cargo space now, and sells for literally zilch on the market. My poor Water Collector is only making 6k a trade every ten, fifteen minutes or so. Not a super worthwhile investment at the moment, due to the AI Cargo Haulers not being able to actually transport more than that because of the sheer volume water takes up now. :P

But I see you mention you've already tweaked it. Thanks.

Just to add my two cents: I think cargo volume should scale up somewhat exponentially together with whatever the item is worth on the market, and to reasonable and logical sense. For example, bulky things like Mining and War Robots should definitely take up huge amounts of cargo space, but Body Armour, while expensive, should not take up as much (though more than in vanilla). Meanwhile, carbon, water, oxygen and the likes should take up a very little amount of cargo space, vanilla amounts even, if that's appropriate with your vision for this mod.

I agree on the not-splitting-the-mod-into-two-separate-downloads change you propose. Makes more sense. I was always a little confused and had to think back which of the two it was that I was meant to be downloading.
Shrooblord



Wayleran

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on: January 21, 2018, 06:13:16 AM
No, I don't think that's what "generated with a tool" means. I think it means the list was compiled by a tool, i.e. pulling together a bunch of resources on what are goods for trade and putting them all into one, concise list, rather than the tool "randomly" generating all the values for the goods. I could be wrong, though, of course, but that makes more sense to my mind than the alternative.

Either way, I'd like to see the goods tweaked so that the higher tier goods are more like what you propose, but lower tier are left untouched. Simple water, for example, takes up a lot of cargo space now, and sells for literally zilch on the market. My poor Water Collector is only making 6k a trade every ten, fifteen minutes or so. Not a super worthwhile investment at the moment, due to the AI Cargo Haulers not being able to actually transport more than that because of the sheer volume water takes up now. :P

But I see you mention you've already tweaked it. Thanks.

Just to add my two cents: I think cargo volume should scale up somewhat exponentially together with whatever the item is worth on the market, and to reasonable and logical sense. For example, bulky things like Mining and War Robots should definitely take up huge amounts of cargo space, but Body Armour, while expensive, should not take up as much (though more than in vanilla). Meanwhile, carbon, water, oxygen and the likes should take up a very little amount of cargo space, vanilla amounts even, if that's appropriate with your vision for this mod.

I agree on the not-splitting-the-mod-into-two-separate-downloads change you propose. Makes more sense. I was always a little confused and had to think back which of the two it was that I was meant to be downloading.

Well Shroob, actually I'm uploading a new version 0.15.7.3 soon and I am going to just have the 1 download. People will have to install the 3 mods seperately but that literally takes only seconds.

Also I'm COMBINING the "Systems" and "Artifacts" mods into one AND I've removed the civil turret mod because that, like all the others I recently decided to leave alone, does not affect combat at all and shouldn't be punishing to equip.

And I'm totally removing the "Economy" mods for 2 reasons.

The first is because like you and others have stated you NEED a lot of credits if you decide to start "building sectors" and building stations, etc...

And the second reason is that the "Shop" mod only reduced the already existing 75% reduction to sell prices on equipement by another 50%... So essentially the formula IS sell price = price * 0.25 and I was only making it sell price = price * 0.125. Trivial difference really. And the "Goods Index" mod I kept tweaking and tweaking but I eventually felt that most things are either at a good volume already, OR are too "important" to crafting/trading etc. to modify... So it's just not worth even messing with them IMO.

Most people really didn't seem to like and/or care about the economy changes and I'd rather just focus on balancing and enhancing combat and events now. The other 3 mods are doing that and working really well so that's what I will continue to focus on too.

I'm going to test out the new version and post it probably tomorrow but it's generally more streamlined and completely combat/balance focused.

Oh and lastly I'm going to include in the new .zip folder a "No AI Fighters" optional mod for people like myself who just want to totally do away with AI fighters because all they do is cause issues and are nearly impossible and also very tedious to kill.

Look for that update and I think after that I'll be done posting new versions for awhile because things are in a pretty stable state now.



Amber

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on: January 21, 2018, 08:30:55 AM
Looking at this mod, and got a usability question: have you actually checked if the subsystem mod gets the energy generation to negastive values or not within reasonable configs on large ships? I mean, I'm flying an 8-slot thing and am planning to upgrade it to what seems to end up being 11-slot thing, and I was planning to mostly fill these with shield boosters along with turrets (actually, the ship I'm currently flying has 6 turret mods and 2 shields, one of which I swap out for other stuff on demand).
Anyway, my concern is that there may be an issue of "what am I gonna do with so many slots" when the requirements are %-based, and large ships are already not really so big a boost given the... stuff



Shrooblord

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on: January 21, 2018, 01:00:25 PM
Well, Wayleran, I liked your Economy Mod, but was just giving feedback on how it could improve (like you asked for), so I'd be sad to see it go. But you do you!

Amber, this game has had a history of "funny Math" when it does its percentage calculations. If "negative Energy Generation" is indeed possible, that's not a bug added by this mod, but one that becomes apparent sooner because of the percentage tweaking this mod applies to the base game's balancing. You would experience the bug with or without mod, though you'd need more Energy to Shield Converter System Module Upgrades before you saw it happen, if playing in vanilla.
Shrooblord



Shrooblord

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on: January 21, 2018, 03:49:32 PM
Just to follow up on that: I've tested in-game, and Generated Energy can never go below zero.

Also, if you add one Upgrade that takes out 40% or the Generated Energy, and another that takes out 40% of the Generated Energy, the Energy you're actually generating will by 20% of the original produced amount of Energy. So all bonuses and penalties are first stacked on top of each other, then applied (they're not multiplicative). In other words, it's not that if you generate 40% less energy, then add another system that takes out 40% of the produced energy, you're producing 40% less of 40% less; you're producing 40%+40% = 80% less in total.
Shrooblord



Wayleran

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on: January 21, 2018, 04:50:03 PM
Looking at this mod, and got a usability question: have you actually checked if the subsystem mod gets the energy generation to negastive values or not within reasonable configs on large ships? I mean, I'm flying an 8-slot thing and am planning to upgrade it to what seems to end up being 11-slot thing, and I was planning to mostly fill these with shield boosters along with turrets (actually, the ship I'm currently flying has 6 turret mods and 2 shields, one of which I swap out for other stuff on demand).
Anyway, my concern is that there may be an issue of "what am I gonna do with so many slots" when the requirements are %-based, and large ships are already not really so big a boost given the... stuff

Hi Amber. As Shroob said, what your describing is a aspect of the game and not a result of my mods. The percentage is taken from your initial, unaltered generated energy. Also the "Shield Booster" is slightly less effective compared to the "Energy to Shield Upgrade"(which no one used because of how imbalanced the Booster is in vanilla)

I intentionally made both shield upgrades use %-based requirements specifically to restrict the use of these to no more than 1 or 2 max and I lowered their effective bonuses because as their are, shields are WAY too strong in this game. I think the changes to the shield upgrades are really well balanced now and only slightly affect the ludicrous amount of shields a player can achieve anyways.

In vanilla it's so easy to get literally your shield to 3-5 million or more, and EVEN with my dps mods and other adjustments I've made, combat is still pretty casual on Normal and Veteran if you focus on taking your time and using as many shield generator blocks as possible.

That was also the philosophy I had with the reduction to Generator Upgrades and the exponential increase in Turret Upgrades energy requirements. It should be "COSTLY" to use multiple shield or turret upgrades, IMHO. You need to make conscious decisions on either being defensively stronger or offensively stronger...not simply be both with little to no downside. It's all about balancing combat and I think my most recent iteration (going up RIGHT now) version 0.15.7.3 is the best balance I've found.

Try the mods and see what you think but keep in mind you should START out on Normal or Veteran (or change your existing server.ini) because enemies are obviously a lot more dangerous and you should avoid combat or at least be super cautious until you get to the Naonite stages and get some shields...

If you haven't used mods before I'd also recommend backing up your "/data/scripts" folder so you can easily undo any mods. The only files affected by mods reside in that folder and you can easily swap in the default scripts and/or mods.

Lastly, I'm streamlining my mods to simply be 3 categories and I'm only having 1 download, "Galaxy Mods", which will have all the mods in different folders so you can pick and choose which you want to use, BUT all the mods work really well in conjunction with each other.

Thanks, let me know if you have any other questions or feedback.



Ravien

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on: January 22, 2018, 05:21:06 AM
Good to hear! Look forward to the new version.



Wayleran

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on: January 22, 2018, 09:06:11 PM
Good to hear! Look forward to the new version.

Thanks bud, the new version is up BUT I definitely need to tweak the systems a little.

The Arbitrary AND Military Turret Upgrades are going to have their top end energy requirements reduced so their aren't as harsh a plenty but there's still a substantial "cost" to equip the TOP TIER ones (+4, +5, +6). But the numbers right now are a bit too much IMO.

I'm also going to make the "Shield Booster" 75% less effective but with LESS energy cost and the "Energy to Shield Converter" the same at 50% and lower the energy cost a little bit... This is because the "Booster" upgrade also gives you shield recharge AND the crucial "upon depletion: recharge 25% of your shields once every 5 mins"... so I want that one to offer less shield durability and be more of the "recharge/upon depletion" upgrade AND the other one to be a straight up increase to total shields. This way the normal player should have 1 or EACH equipped for the 2 distinct bonus types...

Also I'm going to remove ALL the energy requirements for my Artifacts EXCEPT the shield and turret related ones, but those are going to be cut dramatically too in order to reflect the changes to the normal upgrade counterparts. The other artifacts shouldn't have any cost because I've changed my philosophy on "non-combat", "utility" upgrades.

I'll work on this today and post it asap.

These small changes I think will keep almost all the fun and challenge but get rid of some "overkill" on my part. :)

Thanks



Shrooblord

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on: January 22, 2018, 09:32:35 PM
This is because the "Booster" upgrade also gives you shield recharge AND the crucial "upon depletion: recharge 25% of your shields once every 5 mins"...
Funny thing is, not sure if you've noticed, that not all Shield Booster SMUs have this recharge upon depletion trait. It seems to be random whether they do or not. Is there a way for you to balance all Shield Boosters with this in mind? Can you read whether a specific SMU has the recharge bonus, and penalise / balance out Energy Requirements based on that, or do you have to hit all Shield Boosters with a nerf? Mostly asking because I'm curious.
Shrooblord