Author Topic: Is your fleet AI just trolling?  (Read 3282 times)

Cyka

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on: January 17, 2018, 03:33:21 AM
Because there is something blantly wrong with the fleet AI in comparison to the enemy stick ships AI. Any enemy ships you encounter will come into a position then fire all of its turrets if is in range, then keep in that optimal position to continue firing at you. Your own fleet AI is objectively worse as it constantly spins around FOR NO REASON even though all turrets were already at an optimal position of firing, it will simply spins and spins without firing anything as the turrets struggle to keep up with the spin.

There is some huge disparity between your own AI ships and enemy AI ships, and it isn't just about how your ship design works, because any of your ship will spins like an idiot while being destroyed by the enemy AI.



Ulrich_Rüstungjäger

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on: January 17, 2018, 03:34:53 AM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks



Cyka

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on: January 17, 2018, 05:26:17 AM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks

No, those blocks are bloody useless, why would anyone ever use them?



Ulrich_Rüstungjäger

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on: January 17, 2018, 02:51:57 PM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks

No, those blocks are bloody useless, why would anyone ever use them?

I wouldn't call them useless, broken but not useless. I was asking because the can cause the AI to act funny much like how you are describing your issue. If you don't have them than you are encountering an issue that I haven't come across as of yet.



Cyka

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on: January 17, 2018, 04:03:11 PM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks

No, those blocks are bloody useless, why would anyone ever use them?

I wouldn't call them useless, broken but not useless. I was asking because the can cause the AI to act funny much like how you are describing your issue. If you don't have them than you are encountering an issue that I haven't come across as of yet.

This issue is really easy to replicate, just download any ship from steamwork shop and equip them with weapons, watch them fight/mine/salvage and you'l notice they'll spin around even though the turret is already in position to fire, causing them to misshots or out right bug out and refuse to fight.



Shrooblord

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on: January 17, 2018, 04:23:30 PM
I've seen my capital ship rotate around to try and broadside. As far as I've experienced, they take more time than the AI to line up a good shot, but then shoot full tilt for a decent amount of time.

For me, it's the enemy AI that does the stupid turning even though they're already on a good line to their enemy (me). My own ships handle the situation perfectly fine.

I think what we can deduce from this is that the whole system could use a little tune-up.

I wonder though, where on the ship are you placing turrets? I've noticed this can make a big difference. I used to put them all forward-facing, but nowadays I have them on the front, and on sides or wings; this tends to help my ships get better at targeting and also helps them broadside more effectively, which is something they apparently want to do a lot (and it looks pretty cool, I must admit; 3D broadsiding is even more interesting than what ships moving on a 2D plane do).
Shrooblord



Cyka

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on: January 18, 2018, 02:10:38 AM
I've seen my capital ship rotate around to try and broadside. As far as I've experienced, they take more time than the AI to line up a good shot, but then shoot full tilt for a decent amount of time.

For me, it's the enemy AI that does the stupid turning even though they're already on a good line to their enemy (me). My own ships handle the situation perfectly fine.

I think what we can deduce from this is that the whole system could use a little tune-up.

I wonder though, where on the ship are you placing turrets? I've noticed this can make a big difference. I used to put them all forward-facing, but nowadays I have them on the front, and on sides or wings; this tends to help my ships get better at targeting and also helps them broadside more effectively, which is something they apparently want to do a lot (and it looks pretty cool, I must admit; 3D broadsiding is even more interesting than what ships moving on a 2D plane do).

In my experience seems flat simple ships that moves slowly fires abit better than nimble smaller more defined ships, which makes no sense. It doesnt matter where i put the turret the smaller ships will constantly spin for no reason even though the targeting is already good.

We desperately need a script that keeps the ship still if the target locks on the enemy ship. This is just the basics but we absolutely need this right now. Is getting ridiculous that i need 4 or 5 ships patrolling one area, each with 10k+ omnicron to ensure they don't idiotically suicide into weak enemy fleets that only has 700 omnicron. EVEN ONE of those should rip through them with ease.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 02:13:43 AM by Cyka »



DeathTech

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on: January 19, 2018, 12:40:31 PM
Interestingly enough I also have experienced my ai ships (who are all custom designs by me, not workshop) are doing the weird thing of flying straight up to something and then turning away, turning around and moving back in its face. Most notably. It does this even on mining barges.

I can't tell you how hilarious it is to watch a mining barge do mining strafe runs against an asteroid.
Honestly, I think this behavior is possibly tied to a particular turret type.

My mining barge counter-intuitively is not equipped with independent targeting turrets instead of the regular kind which leads me to believe it thinks that it is a fighter of some sorts. I don't know.

Maybe I will do some tests. But the devs can probably tell us straight up how their A.I. works.



Shrooblord

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on: January 19, 2018, 02:32:32 PM
Yes, I have seen this behaviour on fleet ships set to Mining, too. Interestingly though, my Salvaging vessels don't run into this problem.

It may be like you say, turret type is playing into the problem, but I think you need to earnestly consider turret range and placement when designing your AI ships. I keep very close attention to where I place which turrets, to maximise their range effectiveness while I would pilot the ships, and then telling the AI to pilot those ships has great success. The only problem I've seen so far is that it doesn't properly get in range for the Tesla Turrets, because it seems to think "Ey, 90% of my turrets are in-range. Cool, let's go!"

I think the turning and rotating thing is actually part of a dodging mechanic. Have you run up to a bad guy and just sat there holding LMB? You'll notice they rotate into position and then start eating away at you with their guns. But if you keep flying around them, they'll have a hard time getting a lock-on to you with all their guns. They'll try to dodge your attacks in a similar way. I think the friendly AI is replicating this tactic.

I'll keep an eye out for turret type and see if that affects anything in my playthroughs. Good suggestion.
Shrooblord



Cyka

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on: January 19, 2018, 04:12:09 PM
Yes, I have seen this behaviour on fleet ships set to Mining, too. Interestingly though, my Salvaging vessels don't run into this problem.

It may be like you say, turret type is playing into the problem, but I think you need to earnestly consider turret range and placement when designing your AI ships. I keep very close attention to where I place which turrets, to maximise their range effectiveness while I would pilot the ships, and then telling the AI to pilot those ships has great success. The only problem I've seen so far is that it doesn't properly get in range for the Tesla Turrets, because it seems to think "Ey, 90% of my turrets are in-range. Cool, let's go!"

I think the turning and rotating thing is actually part of a dodging mechanic. Have you run up to a bad guy and just sat there holding LMB? You'll notice they rotate into position and then start eating away at you with their guns. But if you keep flying around them, they'll have a hard time getting a lock-on to you with all their guns. They'll try to dodge your attacks in a similar way. I think the friendly AI is replicating this tactic.

I'll keep an eye out for turret type and see if that affects anything in my playthroughs. Good suggestion.

If the turning thing is a dodging mechanic, they certainly are doing an awful awful job at dodging.



Ravien

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on: January 22, 2018, 05:28:28 AM
NPCs do a better job mining than our own AI controlled ships! At least they sit still. :D

I'd be happy if our miners would move into range of the asteroid, stop, and point at it.



Mattoropael

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on: January 25, 2018, 09:08:21 PM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks

No, those blocks are bloody useless, why would anyone ever use them?

They're good for firing seeker missiles toward targets outside the turret's normal firing arc.



Wanderer

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on: March 01, 2018, 09:57:01 AM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks

No, those blocks are bloody useless, why would anyone ever use them?

They're good for firing seeker missiles toward targets outside the turret's normal firing arc.

Well, i find those blocks usefull for another reason, also with seeker missiles: yes they can fire beyond, but for me its nice because they don't need to rotate so you can click r and fire away wich is really helpfull against fighters, although with the combat update less important

Also, to be on topic... i am using a fleet quite long now, and have never see that doing that. Although i have mostly carriers without guns wich don't move, the ones that have guns do indeed weird stuff, but dont turn and wiggle the way you describe it. I have found it usefull to use or missiles on rotation locks or cannons or railguns because they can't fire always like lasers do, so maybe thats an idea? For mining and/or salvaging i recommend using fighters, they are also faster and less sluggisch
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 10:04:43 AM by Wanderer »
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Nachtu

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on: March 01, 2018, 12:50:22 PM
Out of curiosity, are any of your guns on ROT lock blocks

No, those blocks are bloody useless, why would anyone ever use them?

They're good for firing seeker missiles toward targets outside the turret's normal firing arc.

Well, i find those blocks usefull for another reason, also with seeker missiles: yes they can fire beyond, but for me its nice because they don't need to rotate so you can click r and fire away wich is really helpfull against fighters, although with the combat update less important

Also, to be on topic... i am using a fleet quite long now, and have never see that doing that. Although i have mostly carriers without guns wich don't move, the ones that have guns do indeed weird stuff, but dont turn and wiggle the way you describe it. I have found it usefull to use or missiles on rotation locks or cannons or railguns because they can't fire always like lasers do, so maybe thats an idea? For mining and/or salvaging i recommend using fighters, they are also faster and less sluggisch

I built a massive 'Yamato gun' in front of by battleship out of armour covered rotation lock blocks and 12 factory made cannons (same cooldown). Was cool as heck and fun too, firing massive blasts of molten hell towards the enemy.



Charless

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on: March 01, 2018, 02:30:19 PM
Ive noticed this also, I also belive that ai just needs an overhaul in general