Author Topic: Strange goods and goods mechanics...  (Read 758 times)

Speed

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on: April 26, 2018, 08:19:13 AM
Anyone find it absolutely ludicrous that the space cops will pull you over for carrying a couple canisters of elemental chlorine?! In real life, anyone can make chlorine in their kitchen at home (NOT ADVISABLE THOUGH).

So, we're flying huge frickin spaceships with frickin laser beams attached to their heads, giant railguns and cannons that could probably devastate a planet's surface, etc.   So, when the space cops scan me, are they worried about my torpedo hold filled with torpedoes armed with the most explosive substance in the UNIVERSE (antimatter)? NOPE!  It's the CHLORINE that makes them worried!

Containment failure on chlorine- let the ships environmental scrubbers clean it up.  Containment failure on antimatter?  Good-bye ship!!!!! (And anything you also happened to be near, but hey, at least death will come instantly).

Also, doesn't it seem odd that in the distant future there are so many cow and sheep and wool farms, etc?  Seems a little... primitive.  I mean, I can see there maybe being a small demand in a space-based culture for traditional pastoral products, but they will get replaced with things that can be grown more easily and efficiently in space. 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 08:21:11 AM by Speed »



Gontarekt

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on: April 26, 2018, 08:56:49 AM
Yeah I agree with most of this, the space cops also are very unforgiving.



DivineEvil

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on: April 27, 2018, 02:08:36 PM
Well, I've already explored all of these concerns here.

There's much that doesn't make sense with current roster of goods and stations. I've also come to think, that attachment of goods to the production of turrets of all things makes no sense.
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Speed

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on: April 28, 2018, 03:43:16 AM
Well, I've already explored all of these concerns here.

There's much that doesn't make sense with current roster of goods and stations. I've also come to think, that attachment of goods to the production of turrets of all things makes no sense.
We should also be able to produce ship systems.  That would maybe help some.  Especially if the types and quantities of ship systems keeps diversifying.



SageThe13th

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on: May 05, 2018, 11:41:21 AM
Certainly one of the oddest things about Avorion is that I can create a whole ship including a hyperdrive from raw iron mined straight from an asteroid.  Yet making any sort of gun requires all sorts of different items that need to be made in a factory.  Factories which pipeline doesn't include any of the materials I make ships out of.  It's like the whole inventory and trading system exists in some parallel universe with no logical connection to the rest of the game.



Kamo

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on: May 05, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
We will be soon (I hope) able to make full economy conversion mods that'll try to answer the conundrum of "why do we mine coal/ore/aluminum by building stations on asteroids but iron/titanium/naonite by lasering similar but different asteroids" and why ships are so easy to make while custom-made weapons are so hard to produce :).
But at the moment, wonder: if ships needed a host of materials, making them would be inordinately challenging or get cumbersome, and the starting probe-ship would need a big enough cargo hold, or would need to be upgraded to a full-blown "starter ship".
Or there would be "ship class requirements": the player's ship volume would be limited until certain things are added to the ship. (It'd get weird as, for big ship blueprints, there would be "ship eggs", floating cargo holds to hold the upgrade materials before "upgrading" ship class and evolving into the desired ship.)

Making materials have a bigger place in the economy model is a good idea, alongside endless material production like with the MineCorp mod.

Another cool thing would be material-related economy models, as in, there would be an economic model per material, each one having its quirks~. Ideas:
  • The Iron model would be the most complicated (like, as complicated as the current one), while the other models would operate simplifications (like current modded "complexes").
  • Each model would be designed to "answer" to the previous' waste/useless goods.
  • Each model would, of course, add its material to itself (even if it'd only be a secondary good in a few factories). Higher materials would have odder "effects" on the model. That would add some lore on the materials.
But I'm making that thread devolve into a suggestion thread, so whatever.

"Making a ship entirely of raw iron" is metal, therefore satisfying enough ::).
Colorize messages, with the colors of materials (from wiki) !
Ir #FFB380 Ti #FFFFFF Na #4DFF4D Tr #4D9AFF Xa #FFFF4D Og #FF8133 Av #FF2626



SageThe13th

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on: May 06, 2018, 01:23:15 AM
But at the moment, wonder: if ships needed a host of materials, making them would be inordinately challenging or get cumbersome, and the starting probe-ship would need a big enough cargo hold, or would need to be upgraded to a full-blown "starter ship".
Or there would be "ship class requirements": the player's ship volume would be limited until certain things are added to the ship. (It'd get weird as, for big ship blueprints, there would be "ship eggs", floating cargo holds to hold the upgrade materials before "upgrading" ship class and evolving into the desired ship.)

My thinking is more of the reverse of this.  If the devs think making a ship should be easy because otherwise it would make the game too hard to get into.  Then why is trading and turret production so obtuse and completely different from how ships are made.  Even though those elements don't really seem to fit with the logic the rest of the game works on?  That, and you can't even make ship systems.  You can only upgrade them at a research lab.  Which can also do with turrets.  Also, this it doesn't cost anything.  The labs just freely combine items together and reroll the stats.

That means there are three totally different ways of making ship parts, if you include the ship itself as just a part.  Three methods of creation that have no logical connection to each other.



DivineEvil

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on: May 06, 2018, 06:51:14 AM
As it seems for me now, there's only one defined logical solution to the current inconsistency of economy and resources, and that is to separate ship/station construction and armament from the faction economies.

- Materials has to be used to build ships, stations, turrets, fighters, torpedoes and system modules.
- Turrets, fighters, torpedoes and systems should each have their own corresponding factories in faction territories.
- Only fighters and torpedoes can be produced on the ship (consumables), while Turrets and Upgrades are only manufactured on specific stations.
- Turret factories can only make random Common-tier turrets on their own, but can generate blueprints from found or researched turrets of any quality (original turret is destroyed) and use them to reproduce the design for a corresponding amount of materials and credits. Faction turret factories produce turrets with an additional fee, while player factory uses nominal value.
- Torpedo factories sell both individual torpedoes and torpedo blueprints, that players can use to reproduce them. Conventional blueprint production is superfluous for these. Materials necessary for torpedo production depends on its Rarity tier.
- Module factories produce upgrade modules, where the type variety and rarity depends on the factory own' tech level. Players can invest credits into improving factories both for friendly factions and their own, and each consecutive upgrade allows for an additional module variety and an additional rarity level to be chosen, starting down from Common to Exotics. Type added can be non-repeating random or linked to the relative value of the module.

- Trading Commodities are used only for production chains, that lead from the basic raw materials all the way to the final-user faction installations. These are separated into Military, Industrial, Technological and Civilian branches. Delivering all the necessary commodities to the end-use facility of the faction allows it to consume the goods and improve faction's internal development score, which positively influences the faction/player interactions.
- Improved Military score allows for the respawning of sector defender forces and increases the size and combat power of those ships.
- Improved Industrial score increases the rate of production of all faction's mines and factories in active sectors.
- Improved Technological score will increase the tech-level of turrets and fighters, that the faction sells and grants additional tech-levels to turrets that players research at their labs, improving their stats.
- Improved Civilian score increases the credit rewards from the faction for defending their sectors, completing their missions and protecting their trade convoys.
- Economy scores degrade slowly to the base values if not tackled for substantial period of time, that is set in the server config.
- Such system would clean up the economy from a vast amount of excessive goods and production facilities and at the same time would open the room for more comprehensive goods and chains with definite purposes. Commodities delivered to the end-user facilities will be consumed out of the system, which would allow a continuous interest in trading (including low-end components), rather than opportunistic, one-time exploit of a found trade route, which is rendered unusable afterwards. There would be no hundreds of factories standing idle just because their products are only used for particular turret types.

Apart from that, as I've already stated in the referenced thread, there's over two dozen commodities, that are simply redundant for one reason or another, and play no significant role aside from overpopulating the trading and complicating the production chains, some of which doesn't even go anywhere.
Your subconscious brain is currently busy identifying these words and their underlying meaning by the standards of the language. Your consciousness has no role in that process, just as it does not in anything you do. Frankly speaking, what you consider to be yourself is but a passive observer.



Perq

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on: May 08, 2018, 12:46:18 PM
Oh god, this so much... I'm allowed to carry a completed weapon, but I'm not allowed to carry the components...

what

Honestly I think that factions should have a little bit of a problem with you if you enter their territory with too much firepower on your ship (unless they like you, of course). I think that factions shouldn't be as randomly hostile to you as they are now, unless you enter their territory with big guns on board (say, they mostly begin at neutral that shifts into hostile when you enter their territory, but remains neutral if you don't have that many guns on you. A warning from them prior to getting hostile would also be good).

If we want this mechanic I'd leave it to some kind of drugs and other kind of stuff that isn't ship related-dangerous... if that makes sense.



Riftmaster

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on: August 02, 2018, 04:09:07 AM
But at the moment, wonder: if ships needed a host of materials, making them would be inordinately challenging or get cumbersome, and the starting probe-ship would need a big enough cargo hold, or would need to be upgraded to a full-blown "starter ship".
Or there would be "ship class requirements": the player's ship volume would be limited until certain things are added to the ship. (It'd get weird as, for big ship blueprints, there would be "ship eggs", floating cargo holds to hold the upgrade materials before "upgrading" ship class and evolving into the desired ship.)

My thinking is more of the reverse of this.  If the devs think making a ship should be easy because otherwise it would make the game too hard to get into.  Then why is trading and turret production so obtuse and completely different from how ships are made.  Even though those elements don't really seem to fit with the logic the rest of the game works on?  That, and you can't even make ship systems.  You can only upgrade them at a research lab.  Which can also do with turrets.  Also, this it doesn't cost anything.  The labs just freely combine items together and reroll the stats.

That means there are three totally different ways of making ship parts, if you include the ship itself as just a part.  Three methods of creation that have no logical connection to each other.

You can get free turrets by killing a bunch of pirates and aliens, keeping the best ones, and throwing the rest at a mob of mad scientists in a box who sometimes toss you back something really nice.

Picking your result is way more in-depth.

A bit too much IMO but then I haven't dived into it yet.