Poll

Do you like the game's current System which relies heavily on randomly generated  loot and station placement.

Yes, I like it a lot.
It needs fixed.
I could go both ways.

Author Topic: Calling for the death of the RNG god  (Read 2180 times)

DivineEvil

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on: August 20, 2018, 01:21:39 AM
Depending on your luck, the turret factories can be total garbage. I've explored 1/4 of my current galaxy outside the barrier and entire barrier and I am yet to find turret factory beating that one Naonite laser I've found 3 hours into the game. I can't find any Ogo mining laser with effectiveness greater than 15% or salvaging laser better than 20%.

By placing some bounds you will get more predictable RNG on turret factories.
Mmm, not really. Its just changes the consideration of what is to call garbage. The RNG will work all the same. Again, the problem is not that you can't beat the Naonite laser that you've found. The problem that you can't just bring that laser to the factory and reproduce it. Not sure about the Ogonite turrets you were searching - I can hardly find a factory, that grant Xanion turrets that bad.

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This is false dichotomy.
There's no dichotomy here in the first place.

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Also Avorion already implements mechanics from RPG games:

- procedurally generated game world like in roguelikes
- randomized loot with different classes of uniqueness
- research stations are de-facto Horadric Cube/Gnome Chaos Machine
- accessories enhancing certain stats of characters
Neither of these features are RPG-specific. Roguelike is a roguelike, not RPG - most RPGs has a setup world.
Randomized loot does not make the game an RPG - many RPG games has set items with different rarity ratings, that are simply not displayed.
Research stations doesn't make the game an RPG - vast majority of RPGs do not have anything like that.
Stats enhancements do not make the game an RPG - some racing games, simulators and action games also has those.

RPG is a game, where player controls a single or a group of characters with certain defined specializations and associated progression paths, that are moving across the game world following objectives and making decisions with variable outcomes and solving problems in a variety of ways depending on the character feats. So the RPG features applicable to other genres may include but are not limited to: Created and pre-designed characters, specialized character classes,  extensive prescribed level-based progression, quests with variable outcomes based on player's choices, dynamic inter-party relations, moral and immoral actions, etc.

You only learn to understand the distinction if you've played RPGs of the old days. Today, we have all of those cool new bells and whistles, that make such games more appealing and replayable, but they never were what made the game an RPG nor made a MMO into a MMORPG.
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riess

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on: August 20, 2018, 06:02:16 PM
Again, the problem is not that you can't beat the Naonite laser that you've found.

I've didn't find a laser. I've found factory. All my ships so far are mounting 10-20 lasers because nothing else tops that DMG per slot.

There's no dichotomy here in the first place.

Oh, but you acting to the contrary, taking 180 degree stance to everything that doesn't align with your points.

Unless somebody agrees with you, you will make it your point to contest all parts of message you are replying to. You'll go as low as to argue semantics, and then argue for red herring just to make sure you've got last word or "right" . I've observed it there, and I've observed it other feedback threads you are participating in.

The way you are arguing Avorion having RPG mechanics is meaningless to larger debate - a red herring. Bulk of people are describing this game the Space Diablo/Eve Offline. Even if you prove that characteristics of RPG are also present in other genres, that doesn't make logically sound counterpoint to Avorion mechanics overlapping with RPG genre.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 06:08:50 PM by riess »



DivineEvil

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on: August 21, 2018, 02:18:26 AM
I've didn't find a laser. I've found factory. All my ships so far are mounting 10-20 lasers because nothing else tops that DMG per slot.
Tesla probably can do that, since it deals like 5x the damage against shields.

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Oh, but you acting to the contrary, taking 180 degree stance to everything that doesn't align with your points.
It's called arguing for my points. I'm sorry you do not realize you can actually do that. If I don't have a stance, then I don't participate.

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Unless somebody agrees with you, you will make it your point to contest all parts of message you are replying to. You'll go as low as to argue semantics, and then argue for red herring just to make sure you've got last word or "right" . I've observed it there, and I've observed it other feedback threads you are participating in.
Not all parts, only the ones I somewhat disagree with. The point is mostly to make people defend and reinforce the necessity and importance of suggestions they're making. There's no red herrings here.

If you finding something misleading, then you have a freedom to not drive it further and respond to the relevant cases, for example why do you consider it important to have arbitrary distinctions between weapon variants. You were the one who ignored that argument and went for this path instead. Don't blame me for your decisions.

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The way you are arguing Avorion having RPG mechanics is meaningless to larger debate - a red herring. Bulk of people are describing this game the Space Diablo/Eve Offline. Even if you prove that characteristics of RPG are also present in other genres, that doesn't make logically sound counterpoint to Avorion mechanics overlapping with RPG genre.
I'm not proving RPG features in other games - I'm proving that Avorion has none of those. Actually, evaluating Avorion as an RPG is the greatest red herring there is to find. It's just objectively not, which is why making suggestions that rely on that definition is counter-productive. Whatever someone describes it is irrelevant - if there's no defined player character present, then it cannot be an RPG by definition.

When you see a greater picture and understand what Avorion was designed to be and where it's being led across time, then you realize which suggestions drive it further along the concept.
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riess

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on: August 21, 2018, 07:50:43 PM
All right...

Tesla probably can do that, since it deals like 5x the damage against shields.

Thanks, I'll give it a try. Or perhaps I'll kill my inner min-maxer and willfully go for something weaker just for variety's sake ;)


It's called arguing for my points. ... If I don't have a stance, then I don't participate.

If every forum exchange is an argument for you, then this indeed explains the attitude you are bringing here.


I'm sorry you do not realize you can actually do that.

It's jabs like this that make discussion's participant come out as confrontational to others. Keep doing it and you become toxic to the community overall.


The point is mostly to make people defend and reinforce the necessity and importance of suggestions they're making.

The intention is noble one, but the package is a turn off. ;)

People come to gaming communities to drop observations, ideas and experiences. Its extension of the fun they've had at game. If you make things dead serious, you will end everybody who's not alike quit. Basically, you will end with Infinity Battlescape's forums where same 5 people are hounding everybody else off for years because they will beat every point going against their vision of the game to the ground.

People will sometimes propose things simply because they find them cool. Like me, because I loke cool weapon names in space games. Or like that guy next thread who proposed Stellaris galaxy map, because he found it cool looking.


I'm not proving RPG features in other games - I'm proving that Avorion has none of those. Actually, evaluating Avorion as an RPG is the greatest red herring there is to find.

People claim that Avorion has RPG features, not that it is. This is also why I've called it your original stance on the matter a false dichotomy. According to your argument so far a game can be either 100% RPG, or 0% RPG, with nothing inbetween. You are completely blind to concept of mixing genres and games having influences form other genres.

And I've called your previous points red herring, because thats what they were. I've said "this looks similiar to elephant, it has long thunk, big ears and seems very large!" and you said "it's not elephant! Tapir also has large thunk, fennec also has large ears and whales are also large!". This way of deconstructing opponents argument into individual points, then arguing those points in isolation is not logically sound - and may be intepreted as sign of dishonest intent between other side's participation in discussion.

The "objectively not" and "by definition" are just a rhetorical manouvers to give your opinion more credibility in the eyes of bystanders - they don't hold up to popular scrutiny.

Whatever someone describes it is irrelevant - if there's no defined player character present, then it cannot be an RPG by definition.

In Avorion your ship is a player defined character. In fact, I would argue that Avorion is also a game featuring player created character classes, and (in if player chooses so), a party RPG! Ships/characters manifest player's presence within the game world, they are heavily player-defined, they fight, loot, obtain magic trinkets improving their stats.

I would also like to add that for many players sandbox games focused on player generated content are intrusively RPG'ish in their nature. Because so little is defined in world-burding sense, the players themselves start making up stories and playing out the roles within those.


When you see a greater picture and understand what Avorion was designed to be and where it's being led across time, then you realize which suggestions drive it further along the concept.

Let me answer to this with single quote from makers of one of failed software products of recent times:

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Unfortunately you’re not in the market you think you’re in – you’re in the market your users think you’re in.

Its same for all computer software. It's why some games stay niche forever while other grow. Creators assuming "A" is sell-point, while players come for "B". Creators adapt and the core fanbase cries "treason!", or they stay faithful to the vision and core goes "you just don't understand what the game is about".

I'll leave it up to you to think where you are on that spectrum.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 07:56:21 PM by riess »



DivineEvil

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on: August 22, 2018, 01:37:34 AM
Thanks, I'll give it a try. Or perhaps I'll kill my inner min-maxer and willfully go for something weaker just for variety's sake ;)
I sell all Lasers and PDLs, just because they lack their own charisma. Wish they would fire in pulses and overheat.

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If every forum exchange is an argument for you, then this indeed explains the attitude you are bringing here.
Every one that is about suggestions and issues. People make claims and I evaluate them. I make claims and people are free to evaluate them. Same with this thread. There's arguments given, and I respond to them when I care. And here, we don't even have a suggestion - its a discussion on the topic. If there's a place to expect the arguing in, its here.


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It's jabs like this that make discussion's participant come out as confrontational to others. Keep doing it and you become toxic to the community overall.
I usually don't do these. You can check on your own if you want. I'm just highlighting the point, that forums can in fact involve arguing for and against the points in question. A forum, where nobody is arguing, and agrees with everything and never points out the problems, is as good as dead to me.  If that makes others consider me as toxic, fine.
Frankly, I'm old enough to not give a damn. My arguments stand on their own merits.



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People come to gaming communities to drop observations, ideas and experiences. Its extension of the fun they've had at game. If you make things dead serious, you will end everybody who's not alike quit. Basically, you will end with Infinity Battlescape's forums where same 5 people are hounding everybody else off for years because they will beat every point going against their vision of the game to the ground.
I don't think your description applies to the thread we're in. I think its a pretty broad criticism of the game, that should be discussed seriously, trying to find the best potential solutions possible.
My points aren't special. You can prove me wrong. You also can ignore me, that's fine. Anyone is welcome to introduce their input. I hope you are not criticizing me for being active on a forum, which otherwise sees very little action.


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People will sometimes propose things simply because they find them cool. Like me, because I loke cool weapon names in space games. Or like that guy next thread who proposed Stellaris galaxy map, because he found it cool looking.
Yes, and that is the type of an proposition that I hate the most. Any change or the addition to the game or software has to be justified, especially when talking about very small indie developer teams like Avorion have. It has to be possible, functional and beneficial for the players and thus for the game as a whole, proportional to the efforts required. If it also happens to be cool, there's nothing better than that. However, just being "cool" doesn't  cut it, especially if its one of a "seen it in other game, it was cool, lets copy it" kind.

Sure, you can look at it in a "yeah it looks cool, thumbs-up, good idea" manner - what are the developers supposed to do with it? Like, seriously, what kind of changes are expected by the author of the idea? And then people start to wonder why majority of suggestions are ignored - most likely because those suggestions aren't provided in a form, that describes the actual objectives and explains why reaching them would make the game better.

So yeah, we have got different named variants for Torpedoes. Why did we got them? Because torpedoes are variable types of ammunition for a single weapon, and their stats are not random. This is hard to apply to the weapon turrets with RNG stats, unless you sacrifice RNG for the sake of cool, but ultimately meaningless distinctions.


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People claim that Avorion has RPG features, not that it is. This is also why I've called it your original stance on the matter a false dichotomy. According to your argument so far a game can be either 100% RPG, or 0% RPG, with nothing inbetween. You are completely blind to concept of mixing genres and games having influences form other genres.

And I've called your previous points red herring, because thats what they were. I've said "this looks similiar to elephant, it has long thunk, big ears and seems very large!" and you said "it's not elephant! Tapir also has large thunk, fennec also has large ears and whales are also large!". This way of deconstructing opponents argument into individual points, then arguing those points in isolation is not logically sound - and may be intepreted as sign of dishonest intent between other side's participation in discussion.
OP called it a hybrid between an RPG and a Building Game. My point just about that there's nothing RPG about Avorion, period. There's many features and mechanics, some of them come from many different genres, but none of them originate from RPG. This is why Avorion is not tagged as RPG, even though people are capable of defining those tags themselves.

I've never deconstructed your arguments - I addressed them using the same counter-argument. Talking analogies, you're basically arguing that the plane is a car, and when I say its not, you reply with "oh, but it has wheels and doors and a windshield and combustion engines and stuff". Well that true, but that's not the primary features that define a car - all of these features exist in completely different objects. Its a good starting point to know the difference between the plane and a car, because otherwise you might suggest additions, that a plane doesn't need at best, or even can make it worse at what it supposed to do.


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The "objectively not" and "by definition" are just a rhetorical manouvers to give your opinion more credibility in the eyes of bystanders - they don't hold up to popular scrutiny.
Definitions, that do not hold to public scrutiny are useless. You either agree to definitions, or you don't. If you don't then you can just as well throw them all out of the window and just call it all "features". If you do, then you have to understand what the RPG genre implies and what features defines it as such.


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In Avorion your ship is a player defined character. In fact, I would argue that Avorion is also a game featuring player created character classes, and (in if player chooses so), a party RPG! Ships/characters manifest player's presence within the game world, they are heavily player-defined, they fight, loot, obtain magic trinkets improving their stats.
Using this methodology, I can define the vast majority of games as RPGs, which makes the underlying principle useless. I can hardly understand, how can you not see a difference between a character and a unit. I don't think there's an RPG that makes you spend harvested resources to construct character, nor the one, that allows you to just build as many of them as you want.


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I would also like to add that for many players sandbox games focused on player generated content are intrusively RPG'ish in their nature. Because so little is defined in world-burding sense, the players themselves start making up stories and playing out the roles within those.
They're RPG'ish because a player has a character they control. Once they have units and building and harvest resources to build more units and upgrading them and replacing the lost ones, this is not an RPG.

In Avorion, I have made up a whole race with background and lore and "enforced" approach to difference NPC factions, etc. and I actively working to design a catalog of ship/turret designs and station templates with shared stylistic decisions and all that jazz, but that still doesn't magically change the genre of the game I'm playing.


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Let me answer to this with single quote from makers of one of failed software products of recent times:
"Unfortunately you’re not in the market you think you’re in – you’re in the market your users think you’re in."

Its same for all computer software. It's why some games stay niche forever while other grow. Creators assuming "A" is sell-point, while players come for "B". Creators adapt and the core fanbase cries "treason!", or they stay faithful to the vision and core goes "you just don't understand what the game is about".

I'll leave it up to you to think where you are on that spectrum.
It's a little simpler than that. Creators make a product, that offers something to players. Players who want this product play the game, and player who want something else will play something else.

This is how any market works. First, you have pioneers, that kick-start the market by offering something completely new, mostly placing an emphasis on the ideas over execution. Then the entrepreneurs flood the market and exploit it based on what most people want for profits - these are the games, which are most popular, largely the most conceptually primitive and the clones of the same idea with focus on the execution. And then you have indie's, which still offer something new, even though it will never be as popular, holding to the principles of pioneers - ideas over profits.

Avorion is not a game made for profits - games like PUBG are. Avorion is a niche game, because like few others of such sort, it is based on the idea, that your creative skills is what make you succeed in it. Nobody is taking Shipyard-generated ships seriously. Nobody is relying on their twitch-shooter or deep-strategy abilities here. People who are unwilling to spend time harvesting variable resources and building ships will not be able to receive what Avorion has to offer, so it has nothing to do with selling points. Same is true for Starmade. Same is true for Empyrion. Same is true for From The Depths. Same is true for Space Engineers. Same is true for Kerbal Space Program. Niche games usually grow by becoming better, not by becoming different. If you really want for Avorion to grow, then you'd need to get rid of building principles and instead add surface-level bells and whistles, but that will not longer be Avorion.

There's a similar difference between Artists and Designers. An Artist mostly does what he wants, and some people like it. A Designer does what people will like, and what he wants is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:44:53 AM by DivineEvil »
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Wanderer

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on: August 22, 2018, 09:04:42 PM
What does it change when it carries the name RPG or not? If its the character, i agree on the ship being it or the drone being it and controlling the ship from the drone or so. But what does it matter if there's a caracter or not?

To be on topic: i think they should just make found guns reproducible and made guns less good, but too change the research factory bcs thats one of the big points wich need improvement.
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