Author Topic: Are integrity field generators unnecessary?  (Read 1421 times)

SneakyTacts

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on: March 30, 2020, 02:30:30 AM
First, I have a question about IFGs: Is this still true? The wiki article about integrity field generators cites this from the 0.16.6 changelog:
Quote
... blocks protected by integrity fields also only send 50% of the damage taken to the ship's HP, instead of 100%.
https://avorion.gamepedia.com/Integrity_Field_Generator
(It also says integrity field generators increase individual block HP by 20x, but this is beside the question.)

If it is true, why do IFGs have this feature? Why not 20x every block HP, double ship hull HP, and increase the price of all blocks? Lately, I’ve wondered whether IFGs are necessary; they make building somewhat more complicated, and there are alternatives. When does one choose to not install IFGs? I can ask more. Edit: I’m not begging to remove or rework IFGs, but I think the game might be a tiny amount more enjoyable without them.

I recognize that one consequence to installing the bonuses and price directly into the blocks and removing IFGs is that some basic procedurally generated ships that don’t have IFGs will be buffed—since those ships previously may not have had IFGs. This might be an undesired consequence. And someone in the iron sector will no longer need titanium to upgrade themselves. Oh, and everyone must pay for these included benefits, but who hasn’t always been?

What does everyone else think? Feel free to explain why you agree or disagree.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 04:37:23 PM by SneakyTacts »



SneakyTacts

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on: March 30, 2020, 02:47:56 AM
The IF generators don’t have to be replaced by boosting the stats and prices of all blocks. I believe there are many good alternatives, some nobody have discovered. Here are some I can think of off the top of my head:

-system upgrades, rarer = stronger & consumes energy or more
-paying shipyards, military outposts, or new stations to install upgrades
-the game automatically groups weak blocks together



LordMaddog

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on: March 31, 2020, 06:21:23 AM
For builds like I do, IFG are absolutely ESSENTIAL.
 
My ships usually have  close to 20k block s 90% of them about  0.05 in size 

Without IFG  even the slightest of bumps and a small part pops witch means  I have to repair !!

IFG is for peeps who want to make nice things not boxes lol .

They have been nerfed/changed several times and every time pro builders have screamed bloody murder .

At this point, I say leave them be they are not perfect but messing with them will only cause a massive headache.
 
Tho I personally would like them to be changed so that  all the puffy stuff  is removed and just make it so destroyed blocks can be repaired by mechanics  over time.
 



SneakyTacts

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on: March 31, 2020, 02:46:34 PM
At this point, I say leave them be they are not perfect but messing with them will only cause a massive headache.
 
Tho I personally would like them to be changed so that  all the puffy stuff  is removed and just make it so destroyed blocks can be repaired by mechanics  over time.
Good point; it may be a waste of time to rework. I’d like for tiny pieces to be automatically rebuilt.



DivineEvil

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on: March 31, 2020, 08:17:21 PM
Quote
First, I have a question about IFGs: Is this still true? The wiki article about integrity field generators cites this from the 0.16.6 changelog:
Yes. It is NOW true, because it was a fairly recent buff, for the reason that just 10x of the block HP bonus was often neglected for the price.

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If it is true, why do IFGs have this feature? Why not 20x every block HP, double ship hull HP, and increase the price of all blocks?
Because it is not equivalent.

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Lately, I’ve wondered whether IFGs are necessary; they make building somewhat more complicated, and there are alternatives the developers should consider.
One solid block in the middle of the ship made to its proportions covers the rest of the build most of the time. It's not complicated.

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When does one choose to not install IFGs?
When he doesn't want to spend unnecessary resources and credits on something that isn't meant to take damage or places an emphasis on Shields.

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I’m beginning to believe these consequences are not worse than the boring chore of applying an integrity field, as it works today. What does everyone else think? Feel free to explain why you agree or disagree.
I disagree because its a feasible functional block with an appropriate price. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it in relation to other block types.

It's like arguing why thrusters and gyros work in relation to CoM, too complicated, let's just make them indifferent, or why do we need cargo blocks, it's too complicated, let's just give cargo capacity by volume. No, it's not complicated, and there's no way to turn a localized field effect into a global modification without losing the principle, and placement of gyros/thrusters is an order-of-magnitude more of a chore than IFGs.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 08:19:47 PM by DivineEvil »
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SneakyTacts

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on: March 31, 2020, 09:43:17 PM
Thanks for confirming and correcting, DivineEvil. One question I have for you: for ships, when do you not use integrity field generators?
Quote
When does one choose to not install IFGs?
When he doesn't want to spend unnecessary resources and credits on something that isn't meant to take damage or places an emphasis on Shields.

(Quote)...
I disagree because its a feasible functional block with an appropriate price. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it in relation to other block types.

It's like arguing why thrusters and gyros work in relation to CoM, too complicated, let's just make them indifferent, or why do we need cargo blocks, it's too complicated, let's just give cargo capacity by volume. No, it's not complicated, and there's no way to turn a localized field effect into a global modification without losing the principle, and placement of gyros/thrusters is an order-of-magnitude more of a chore than IFGs.

To me, applying an integrity field is also not complicated, usually taking a block or two. (I’m not even bothered placing IFGs, so I shouldn’t have said it’s a boring chore.) But if certain friends of mine were to join, I’m sure they’d often ignore integrity field generators just because they’d not want to fit it in. Since there are alternatives, I’ll happily welcome changes. Again, please don’t think I’m demanding for change; I’m content as it is.

I don’t think my post is like arguing that thrusters and gyros are complicated. Thrusters are comparatively fun to place and make sense to have. IFG blocks are uninteresting.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 09:55:59 PM by SneakyTacts »



DivineEvil

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on: April 01, 2020, 01:35:18 AM
Thanks for confirming and correcting, DivineEvil. One question I have for you: for ships, when do you not use integrity field generators?
When I build early-game miners/salvagers/freighters, and when I build stations.
First, civilian ships rarely have to deal with enemy fire when ordered remotely - they're only in danger when you've recently left the sector yourself and it is still simulated, or just happened to do something in the same sector. I still give each and every ship a 50% processing power as hull and armor, but the IFG is unnecessary and its volume is better used for additional Cargo capacity.

Second, I make stations to have a large redundancy of Hull Points and repair them using Repair Turrets. Using IFGs for such a large structure would be wasteful and isn't really needed. Large amounts of Stone and Hull on their own are enough and cheap.

To me, applying an integrity field is also not complicated, usually taking a block or two. (I’m not even bothered placing IFGs, so I shouldn’t have said it’s a boring chore.) But if certain friends of mine were to join, I’m sure they’d often ignore integrity field generators just because they’d not want to fit it in. Since there are alternatives, I’ll happily welcome changes. Again, please don’t think I’m demanding for change; I’m content as it is.
Well, you can ignore whatever you decide to. Personally, I begin with the IFG block in the middle and then build everything else around it, so there's no "fitting in" involved.

I've performed extensive testing and analysis to arrive at proportional needs for different block types in a ship for optimal function. You only need 2.5% (1/40 of the target PP) of volume as IFG core to cover the rest of the ship in its field, given the proportions of the block exactly resemble the proportions of the ship you want to build.

I don’t think my post is like arguing that thrusters and gyros are complicated. Thrusters are comparatively fun to place and make sense to have. IFG blocks are uninteresting.
It's just an analogy. IFG is interesting in that its a pre-shield technology, that makes Hull and Armor competitive with the Shields. You either have to adapt your entire build to the proportions of the IFG you placed first (simple), or you have to place IFGs in optimal locations to cover the outer hull leaving the internals unaffected (efficient). There are choices to be made and preferences to decide upon, the same as with Thrusters and Gyros. Also, a good reason to have some doodads on your hull, other than just looks.
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SneakyTacts

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on: April 01, 2020, 04:46:38 PM
I enjoyed reading about your methods, but you’re the experienced player that benefits from IFG blocks as they are. That’s good, and I imagine almost all players are like us. An alternative system could benefit those who ignore or don’t yet understand it. Can’t say I know anyone like this, though, so my claim isn’t great, and it’s embarrassing for me to continue.



Jester

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on: April 13, 2020, 02:17:22 AM
IFGs can be placed sparingly on your ships.
If you use huge chunks of IFGs while building, I have noticed a localization effect - that is, if I place a huge chunk and a small chunk of IFG - they have about the same result.
Warrax suggested to me to sprinkle the IFGs throughout your ships to optimized their effect, and not place an unnecessary burden on your build.



SneakyTacts

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on: April 13, 2020, 03:26:27 AM
Never mind about what I said in the post; I don’t agree with myself anymore, haha.

Anyway, I tend to place 2 or 3 generators around the whole ship to save the volume in the center. It’s a medium between your method and DivineEvil’s.



FuryoftheStars

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on: April 14, 2020, 03:52:43 PM
IFGs can be placed sparingly on your ships.
If you use huge chunks of IFGs while building, I have noticed a localization effect - that is, if I place a huge chunk and a small chunk of IFG - they have about the same result.
Warrax suggested to me to sprinkle the IFGs throughout your ships to optimized their effect, and not place an unnecessary burden on your build.

In my experience so far, a larger IFG has more coverage area than the same volume split between multiple blocks.

So, I guess it depends on the shape of your build.



DivineEvil

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on: April 17, 2020, 01:38:05 AM
In my experience so far, a larger IFG has more coverage area than the same volume split between multiple blocks.

So, I guess it depends on the shape of your build.
Technically it doesn't matter. Every IFG block has exactly 10 times the coverage in a given dimension relative to its own size in that dimension, effectively 9 times if the IFG block is excluded, from its center to the center of the farthest block it can cover. How would you divide it is largely irrelevant. You're good as long as fields generated do not intersect each other. Two nearby blocks with fields directly adjacent to one another are just as effective as one block of equal volume in the middle. If you're very meticulous about it, you can reduce the amount of IFG blocks even below 1% of Processing Power, but it is way too much bother that it worth.
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Sulaweyo

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on: April 25, 2020, 02:42:33 AM
In my experience so far, a larger IFG has more coverage area than the same volume split between multiple blocks.

So, I guess it depends on the shape of your build.
Technically it doesn't matter. Every IFG block has exactly 10 times the coverage in a given dimension relative to its own size in that dimension, effectively 9 times if the IFG block is excluded, from its center to the center of the farthest block it can cover. How would you divide it is largely irrelevant. You're good as long as fields generated do not intersect each other. Two nearby blocks with fields directly adjacent to one another are just as effective as one block of equal volume in the middle. If you're very meticulous about it, you can reduce the amount of IFG blocks even below 1% of Processing Power, but it is way too much bother that it worth.

Theoretically, you can get way below that. Since a block benefits from the full effect of an IF when it only touches it, you could cover all your blocks while only covering a tiny fraction of the actual volume of the ship with IFs. For example, a 0.001x0.001x0.001 IFG at the intersection of four 10x10x2.5 armour panels only takes up 0.0000000001% of the processing power.
Personally, I don't bother going that far. I usually place several IFGs around the ship's surface under the armour layer, but I just do that by replacing the same kind of smallish framework blocks that I also use for other components when the shape is roughly finished.



DivineEvil

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on: April 26, 2020, 08:03:20 AM
Theoretically, you can get way below that. Since a block benefits from the full effect of an IF when it only touches it, you could cover all your blocks while only covering a tiny fraction of the actual volume of the ship with IFs. For example, a 0.001x0.001x0.001 IFG at the intersection of four 10x10x2.5 armour panels only takes up 0.0000000001% of the processing power.
Personally, I don't bother going that far. I usually place several IFGs around the ship's surface under the armour layer, but I just do that by replacing the same kind of smallish framework blocks that I also use for other components when the shape is roughly finished.
This will not work. Such a small IFG block will not produce a field large enough to cover any of the blocks.

Again, IFG block produces a field exactly 5 times the given dimension from its center in every direction and that field affects blocks with their center inside of it. A small 0.001^3 block will only produce a field of 0.01^3 around itself. Touching plays no role in that principle.
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Sulaweyo

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on: May 23, 2020, 04:53:20 PM
Theoretically, you can get way below that. Since a block benefits from the full effect of an IF when it only touches it, you could cover all your blocks while only covering a tiny fraction of the actual volume of the ship with IFs. For example, a 0.001x0.001x0.001 IFG at the intersection of four 10x10x2.5 armour panels only takes up 0.0000000001% of the processing power.
Personally, I don't bother going that far. I usually place several IFGs around the ship's surface under the armour layer, but I just do that by replacing the same kind of smallish framework blocks that I also use for other components when the shape is roughly finished.
This will not work. Such a small IFG block will not produce a field large enough to cover any of the blocks.

Again, IFG block produces a field exactly 5 times the given dimension from its center in every direction and that field affects blocks with their center inside of it. A small 0.001^3 block will only produce a field of 0.01^3 around itself. Touching plays no role in that principle.

To be sure I tried what I suggested and it works. The integrity field only needs to touch the block, not encompass its centre. As it says in the IFG tooltip.
Do you get different results?