Avorion Forum

General => Mods => Topic started by: Wayleran on January 07, 2018, 03:16:28 PM

Title: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 07, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.5
(download at the bottom of this post)


Update 1/26/2018: Version 0.15.7.5

 - The Economy Mod has been re-integrated and COMPLETELY redesigned so it now only impacts raiding and has little to no negative impact of legitimate trading.

 - Trading ships will now carry less goods overall and therefore yield less profits, however players can still "farm" high value goods (like Mining Robots or Body Armors) by paying attention and finding good trade routes and simply waiting on more trade ships to enter the sector.

 - Pirates have had their hulls and dps slightly increased after the last version of the mod nerfed them a little too much. I'm fine-tuning things like this to find a balance between making enemies more challenging while also not adding "grind" to the game.

 - Both Pirate Attacks and Convoi/Fake Distress Signals have also had the number of enemies that spawn slightly modified. Some harder encounters may have 1 or 2 more enemies than before, while easier ones are still the same.

 - Alien Attack events have also been adjusted to have an extra ship in most cases and the sizes of the Xsotan Reavers, Dreadnoughts and Motherships have also been increased because they too were nerfed too much in the previous version of the mod.



Update 1/22/2018: Version 0.15.7.4

 - Both shield upgrades have been reworked to offer DISTINCTLY different benefits so a player will likely want to have at least 1 of each equipped.

 - Shield Boosters now require less energy but also have less "Shield Durability" and always have "Shield Recharge Rate" with the possibility of the crucially important "Upon depletion: Recharges 25% of your shield." bonus!

 - Energy to Shield Converter upgrades are now THE way to get higher end "Shield Durability" benefits. In vanilla they offered little benefit over the Shield Boosters, but now both are different and work well together.

 - Turret upgrades have been reworked to require slightly less energy, but are still costly at higher rarities to balance out end game dps potential.

 - Alien Artifacts now have no energy costs, except for the turret and shield related ones.

 - Added "+2 unarmed" to Artifact IV so it's now +5 armed, +2 unarmed. This change was to keep it valuable even compared to a normal "+5 turret" counterpart.

 - Artifact V is now a +60%/-35% Energy to Shield Converter which is slightly more energy efficient than a normal legendary upgrade with that Shield Durability bonus.

 - Some Pirate and Xsotan ships seemed to be a bit TOO big and fights were slightly more tedious than they were fun. So some of those ship's volumes were modified slightly to still offer longer encounters and challenge while not being too "grindy".

 - Slightly increased the volume of spawned "traders" in the "Trader Attack" and "Convoi Distress Signal" events so they were able to survive a bit longer and give players time to "save" them. Also the spawned trader ship in the Trader Attack event will spawn more towards the center of the sector with the pirates usually trailing behind "on their tails" so it will be easier for players (and even alliance ships) to come to the rescue instead of having to fly too far out first.




To install mods:

 1. Backup your "...\Avorion\data\scripts" folder. These files are the ONLY ones affected by mods so you can easily
     revert back to vanilla at any point by replacing your scripts folder with your own backup. You can also simply
     uninstall then reinstall Avorion through Steam to revert back to vanilla. Your saved ships and galaxies will not be
     affected.
 2. Copy the "data" folder(s) from the mod packages into your "...\Steam\steamapps\common\Avorion" folder and
     overwrite the default files when prompted.




Mods included in this Modpack


Galaxy Mod - Enemies

All enemies in the game have been reworked to be bigger and stronger. Normal will feel more intense and higher difficulties will ramp up dramatically!
 - Enemy hull size is increased by 2x
 - Enemy DPS is increased by 4x
 - Modified all individual pirate ship stats to make them more formidable
 - Normalized the volume of all Xsotan ships to other normal ships (from .5 to 1x)
 - Normalized the DPS of all Xsotan ships to other normal ships (from .75 to 1x)


Galaxy Mod - Events

Alien Attack
 - Increased the variety and severity of the events
 - Renamed and added additional Xsotan ships (Hunter, Reaver, Dreadnought and Mothership)
 - Reworded the warning messages for each of the 4 encounters to give the player a "clue" on what's about to arrive

Convoi Distress Signal
 - Fixed the missing "Mission Complete" message
 - Mission will now properly be removed from your mission log upon completion
 - Scaled rewards to correspond to the difficulty of each encounter
 - Increased the variety and severity of the events

Event Scheduler
 - Slightly increased the pause time between events to compensate for the harder encounters

Fake Distress Signal
 - Increased the variety and severity of the events

Pirate Attack
 - Increased the variety and severity of the events
 - Added "Threat Levels" to encounters to indicate not only their difficulty, but also their rewards
 - Scaled rewards to correspond to the difficulty of each encounter

Trader Attacked by Pirates
 - Increased the trader's headstart so players have a chance to arrive in time
 - Increased the volume of the trader so it has a chance to survive until help arrives
 - Increased the variety and severity of events
 - Scaled rewards to correspond to the difficulty of each encounter


Galaxy Mod - Economy

 - Modifies the amount of goods that cargo ships are carrying to a randomized amount between 10-50 back and forth from enemy stations
 - Roughly 50% of the goods being carried will "drop" from destroyed ships so players can still have fun and profit from raiding but also need to be patient and find good trade routes to "farm"
 - This will limit raiding profits while not negatively impacting legitimate trading
 - You can still however destroy stations but once you do they won't respawn, so I'd recommend restricting yourself to only raiding cargo ships


Galaxy Mod - Systems

System upgrades have been balanced to be less over-powered and require a more reasonable amount of energy. These changes DRASTICALLY improve the overall challenge of the game by requiring players to be smarter with their upgrades and use more of the game mechanics, such as batteries, etc... The three main adjustments were to the Generator, Shield and Turret upgrades.

Arbitrary & Military Turrets
 - Increased the energy requirements of these systems exponentially to balance out end game player DPS potential
 - Low tier upgrades still require a small amount of energy while high tier upgrades require increasingly more

Generator Upgrade
 - Reduced the effectiveness of these systems by 50%
 - Players will be forced to use more generator and energy storage blocks in their ships to compensate

Energy to Shield Converter
 - Reduced the effectiveness of these systems by 50%
 - These systems are more powerful than Shield Boosters but lack the other bonuses
 - Increased the energy requirements of these systems

Shield Booster
 - Reduced the effectiveness of these systems by 80% due to the other bonuses of they provide
 - Increased the energy requirements of these systems
 - Converted the energy usage to a % based format to balance this with the other shield upgrade

Alien Artifacts
 - I've reworked all 8 alien artifacts to be more interesting and much more balanced, instead of all being a generic +5
   turret upgrade with ZERO energy cost. They're now all a different type of "legendary" tier upgrade (with some
   unique twists). I intend for them to be very powerful, but very costly to use and not a best-in-slot legendary.

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237794498/44D3CA176A6D69F81DF75B80B8D99F5561DE35D2/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237794632/9810C54CF4E4CE12C141515D33E1370D893FD53E/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237794716/028EA8F340101C7B61CC559A6EC0E4A2F4E2C271/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237794797/ABFBB4B1275166C1B6E7664E280C6C31A56354F6/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237794872/CABAB3EB85E25D25E0A2C6B747331BFBB5CA41E2/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237794954/C17361C7771FAD9D9F02964E0B71242FA7DEBD0E/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237795030/598E1B373CF3EBD3E25880FA45D3F46560EBD43C/)(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940558522237795109/A651543E48101ABC2807AB236F3F9C04F2475443/)





Version History

Update 1/21/2018: Version 0.15.7.3a

 - I've streamlined and fine-tuned my mods and I think they're in a pretty good state now.
 - In addition I've removed the "Economy Mods" from the package because I felt the impact of them was minimal and
   a lot of people were either not using them or had legitimate concerns about them making the game and acquiring
   credits feel a bit too "grindy" and I agreed. So now I'm focused on balancing combat and improving events, etc...
 - I'm also only releasing 1 download package with the individual mods for separate installation.
 - I've also added an "optional" mod to remove all AI fighters because they are buggy and cause a lot of problems.
 - Install the "No AI Fighters" mod last so it overwrites the "Xsotan" mod correctly.

-- Old Versions --
Spoiler: show

Version 0.15.7.3
 - Removed the "Economy Mod" entirely because I felt, as well as others, it really didn't have a positive impact on the
   game and made things feel too "grindy".
 - Combined the "Artifacts Mod" and the "Systems Mod" into one folder because they really work in conjunction with
   one another.
 - Removed and/or softened the effect of some of the "Systems Mods".
 - The only upgrades now affected are the Generator, Shield, Arbitrary and Military Turret Upgrades.
 - I felt these were the only ones that had any impact on combat anyways and were in need of balancing.
 - All other upgrades are more "utility" than anything and shouldn't really be punishing to use.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Hellatze on January 09, 2018, 05:57:15 PM
i dont want this mod anymore.

give me recovery file.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 09, 2018, 07:32:34 PM
Really? If you're serious then all you need to do is right click on Avorion in your Steam games list and uninstall then reinstall and the default game files in the "scripts" folder will automatically be updated.

I've also attached a recovery of the completely vanilla/default "scripts" to replace all of the ones I've modded in the description below. These are the scripts as they currently are as of today. I literally just did a quick uninstall/reinstall through steam (which only takes a few seconds since this is a small game install).

I'd recommend in the future though to ALWAYS backup your "scripts" folder in the...

...\Steam\steamapps\common\Avorion\data\...  folder.

That's all you need to do. No other game files are affected by mods.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Hellatze on January 09, 2018, 08:24:46 PM
I dont want my other mod  get removed by vertify integrity on steam.

Thats why i asked recov file.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 10, 2018, 07:55:00 AM
This seems like a great mod! Looks like you really put some thought into balancing it (for example, making random attacks harder but also make them happen less frequently)

Hellatze, he does not know which mods you had installed and so there's no way for him to make a recovery file for you in this situation. The best thing to do would be to reinstall the default files like he suggested, and then install the mods you want again.

In the future, ALWAYS back up your saves and files before modding and expect things to break. :)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Mattoropael on January 10, 2018, 08:28:39 AM
I dont want my other mod  get removed by vertify integrity on steam.

Thats why i asked recov file.

Get used to making backups to any file you overwrite then.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 11, 2018, 08:23:55 PM
I dont want my other mod  get removed by vertify integrity on steam.

Thats why i asked recov file.

Like I said I put a recovery up but it occurred to me that there's probably only ONE reason you're concerned about steam authentication... We all know what that is... but anyways please just ask politely and I'll do my best to accommodate anyone's requests.



This seems like a great mod! Looks like you really put some thought into balancing it (for example, making random attacks harder but also make them happen less frequently)

Hellatze, he does not know which mods you had installed and so there's no way for him to make a recovery file for you in this situation. The best thing to do would be to reinstall the default files like he suggested, and then install the mods you want again.

In the future, ALWAYS back up your saves and files before modding and expect things to break. :)

Thanks bud but I have done TONS of work on the "new" Systems Mod going up later today and I also reworked ALL the Artifacts too so not only are they balanced but they all do different things and are, what I'm calling, "Parasitic Upgrades". This just means they're energy use "leeches" all the energy it can while still keeping the "host" alive. :)

Check later today for more!!!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: kingteema on January 11, 2018, 10:14:42 PM
This sounds awesome.  Much stronger enemies in the center also gets rid of the need for a stupid "rift ring" story hack to keep people from burning through the game too quickly.  Perhaps you could also add an option to remove the rift for a true "sandbox" mode.  I got rid of it by editing the /lib/passagemap.lua so that "PassageMap:passable" and "PassageMap:insideRing" only returned true.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] - Galaxy Mod Pack - Balancing and Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 12, 2018, 06:17:16 PM
Hellatze, he does not know which mods you had installed and so there's no way for him to make a recovery file for you in this situation. The best thing to do would be to reinstall the default files like he suggested, and then install the mods you want again.

In the future, ALWAYS back up your saves and files before modding and expect things to break. :)
This is why we need a mod loader. I should get back to work on that again. I'll try and scratch up on my java / visual basic. Programming in batch was giving me unnecessary headaches trying to work around some of the stupidly simply things batch cannot do properly. xD

----

Nice, Wayleran. Is there a way you could restructure this mod so it uses the "Dirtyredz approach" of incorporating the scripts in a separate /mods folder rather than replacing the vanilla scripts? Going back after a patch and re-applying all the mods is... tedious... and this 'new' system of separating scripts is rather elegant, plus, not touched by patches. I'm not sure if it's compatible with what you want though, considering you're tweaking balance values rather than adding functionality, but I'd say check it out anyway: it's a neat system.

As for the mod itself, super cool, I'm gonna play around in a galaxy that kicks my ass like games ought to. ^^

Like the "real" convoi attack events, these are now much more challenging and always include a pirate mothership.
OoooOOOooooo... me likey

I also reworked ALL the Artifacts too so not only are they balanced but they all do different things and are, what I'm calling, "Parasitic Upgrades".
Heh, sweet. I like that nomenclature.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 13, 2018, 12:34:49 AM
Woah, burst of new mods! If I understand correctly, all those separate mods are contained within this post's modpack, correct? So I don't have to install anything additionally to get the changes advocated here?
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Wayleran on January 13, 2018, 01:05:03 AM
Actually I've included 2 downloads now...

The Modpack is the one that's already compiled for a single installation.

The other "compilation" is all the mods individually so you can pick and choose if you'd like. But you'll need to install them each.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 13, 2018, 01:22:40 AM
And by "each" you mean each mod included in the modpack, correct? You don't mean I need to install both the modpack and the compilation in order for your changes to work?

Thanks for these balance changes by the way! I'm super excited to play a more diverse and interesting game with drawbacks and challenges. Good thinking!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Wayleran on January 13, 2018, 01:43:54 AM
Yeah the modpack download is already compiled. Just unzip it and copy the "data" folder into your Avorion folder and you're good to go.

The other "compilation" is just all the mods individually if you'd rather pick and choose, but TBH, I think they work best if you use them all. ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 13, 2018, 01:53:49 AM
Yah, definitely. Looking forward to a galaxy that'll try and kick my ass. As soon as I launch the game. Which will be... right... now. *waves*
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 13, 2018, 02:42:19 AM
OH MY GOD ALL MY CREW ON ALL MY SHIPS ARE DYING BECAUSE I HAVE INSUFFICIENT ENERGY TO SUPPLY TO THE LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS
hahahaha thanks dude, loving this so far

EDIT:
Oh, ho ho, yeah, it's kicking my ass alright. Tiny three-ship Xsotan invasion force. Wiped out all my defenders in my home sector with ease. Couldn't even outdamage the healing of their shields. This is brutal. I love it!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Wayleran on January 13, 2018, 03:18:41 AM
Hehe, I'm glad. Remember to lower the difficulty on your galaxy to AT LEAST Veteran or Normal.

Normal should feel harder than vanilla "Insane". So don't play on Insane WITH these mods until you get used to it.

I've found Veteran to be challenging and hard but not "scary". My intent is make normal feel "normal" and challenging but still relaxed and Veteran to really start kicking your ass...

Beyond that it should get INSANE!!! ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 13, 2018, 04:34:33 AM
Yeah, after some more playing, battles now definitely feel more intense. Also, I'm gonna have to chuck away ALL my fighters because they're now basically useless, but what I get in return will be much, much more fun fighters. ;)

Also... the sizes of these guns! Sheesh! Bigger than the bridge of my Flagship...!

I will say though that because of the larger hull sizes, ships like the Xsotan now are very blocky, and they look less menacing in physique than before. Not sure how much you could do about that; that's just what Avorion does when you tell it to "up the blockage".

EDIT:
This is sweet. I have to run away again and boost to safety on the brink of destruction. It's just like I'm playing the early game again with a fragile ship, even though I'm playing an all-out epic space battle with 50 fighters in on the action as well. I like the new Xsotan ship names too.  Pretty cool.

EDIT II:
Oh hell! One of those Xsotan scumbags just gave my capital ship a wicked tail slap like a whale; exploded me on the spot! Jeebus!! D:
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Wayleran on January 13, 2018, 05:00:16 AM
Glad you like it dude.

Yeah as far as the scaled up gun sizes (which do look awesome though) there's nothing I can do about that now because it comes with the increased volumes on ships. Also the ships are all randomly generated and again I can't do anything about that but in a way it's cool to see Pirate Motherships and Xsotan ships that are menacingly large. LOL

I need to tweak quite a few things, especially the economy mod. I want the amount of goods you receive from raiding to be a fun amount but not economy-breaking. I may have gone overboard with the volumes for some really expensive things, but that's because I need to see how many goods drop and then adjust it down.

I want it to be where you receive maybe 1-50 large/expensive goods, like Mining Robots, but not 1000-5000... Because then after 1 raid you have 100's of millions of credits and the economy in the game is meaningless.

Let me know if you find anything to be TOO intense or overkill OR if there's anything that's not nerfed enough. Balance is a hard thing to get to without player feedback.

Thanks.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 13, 2018, 11:59:45 AM
I want it to be where you receive maybe 1-50 large/expensive goods, like Mining Robots, but not 1000-5000... Because then after 1 raid you have 100's of millions of credits and the economy in the game is meaningless.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that's a healthy trade. And sure, let me get back to you on how evil the nerf is once I find something with a valuable commodity and blow it up.

Quote
Let me know if you find anything to be TOO intense or overkill OR if there's anything that's not nerfed enough. Balance is a hard thing to get to without player feedback.
Well actually I've been playing a bit and trying to match up my ships to the new strength of the Xsotan and Pirates who are constantly raiding my base, but I find it very hard to fill my ships' System Module slots with anything meaningful. I'm having to throw in five energy upgrades just so I can support one shield and one turret upgrade, for example. Definitely a game changer. But maybe that just means I need to incorporate more energy cores into my design: I'll get back to you on that, too.
In the meantime, maybe consider buffing the nerfs to System Modules back up by a tiny amount, say 5%, and see how that is. I do like that the game is now harder to, er, "game", but I have a tiny gut feeling it's just a little too overboard. What do you think?

Also I think you mentioned that with respect to the enemies now being much, much more powerful, there'd be less frequent attacks, right? I've noticed that they're still dropping in on me around every five to ten, fifteen minutes (hard to gague solely from memory: I'll check a clock next time), even though it now takes me a solid five to fifteen minutes just to deal with two of them. It's good no monstrous fleet has shown up yet 'cause I'm already starting to stockpile a couple of baddies from previous waves and I think a splurge of goons would mean curtains for my lovely built-from-scratch home Sector.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Wayleran on January 13, 2018, 07:11:22 PM
Well actually I've been playing a bit and trying to match up my ships to the new strength of the Xsotan and Pirates who are constantly raiding my base, but I find it very hard to fill my ships' System Module slots with anything meaningful. I'm having to throw in five energy upgrades just so I can support one shield and one turret upgrade, for example. Definitely a game changer. But maybe that just means I need to incorporate more energy cores into my design: I'll get back to you on that, too.
In the meantime, maybe consider buffing the nerfs to System Modules back up by a tiny amount, say 5%, and see how that is. I do like that the game is now harder to, er, "game", but I have a tiny gut feeling it's just a little too overboard. What do you think?

Also I think you mentioned that with respect to the enemies now being much, much more powerful, there'd be less frequent attacks, right? I've noticed that they're still dropping in on me around every five to ten, fifteen minutes (hard to gague solely from memory: I'll check a clock next time), even though it now takes me a solid five to fifteen minutes just to deal with two of them. It's good no monstrous fleet has shown up yet 'cause I'm already starting to stockpile a couple of baddies from previous waves and I think a splurge of goons would mean curtains for my lovely built-from-scratch home Sector.

Well I forgot to mention a couple things.

You should try these mods out on Normal or Veteran, because remember Veteran will literally be much harder than vanilla Insane.

Also in regards to the system upgrade mods, yeah the nerfs are harse but intentional. I'm trying to counteract the over-powered shield, generator and turret upgrades but not only nerfing their effectiveness BUT also making their energy requirements higher so that you DO NEED TO DEVOTE MORE SHIP SPACE TO GENERATORS AND ENERGY STORAGE!!!

Convert some blocks into more generators (which naturally reduces your ability to have a gazillion shields) and also I intend for you to be at or near the max required energy and then dip into your batteries when you're boosting or fighting. Then during "downtimes" you'll be recharging your abundant energy stores. As it is now, I don't think most people if any even use energy storage blocks or battery upgrades because the vanilla upgrade energy requirements are way WAY too low and trivial...like .45 GW for a legendary upgrade?!?! Nahhh.

And BOTH shield upgrades now use a harse PERCENT-BASED system because my intent is for players to only be able to equip 1 to 2 MAX shield upgrades.

And the high turret energy requirements and Artifacts mod, again is an attempt to limit the ridiculously high amount of turrets you can equip with essentially 0 downside. The artifacts alone on vanilla were +5 x 8 turrets for ZERO energy...that's just totally imbalanced.

So, yeah, I'd say you should devote a lot more ship blocks to energy generators and storage and get accustomed to using batteries on a more regular basis and not as an emergency only.

LASTLY, if you're on an existing galaxy (change the difficulty in the server.ini btw) then any sectors that you've been too will still have been generated with the pre-modded alliance ships/stations size but pirates/xsotan will be the new harder versions.

If you want the one thing that works to do a full "refresh" of your galaxy is to...

FIRST BACKUP YOUR GALAXY IN .../AppData/Roaming/Avorion/galaxies... Just copy and/or zip a copy of the galaxy as it is.

THEN delete the "sectors" folder inside the galaxy folder. This will delete all the generated sectors. They'll still show up on your map and if you go back they'll still generate exactly like before, just with the higher hull sizes/dps and trade goods volumes etc.... The only small bug is a few of your wormholes you've found MAY disappear when you go back to them but it's usually a small amount of them.

Thanks for the feedback. Try my ideas about more generator blocks and batteries and see what you think. Maybe use a lower tier turret upgrade until you get a bigger ship. But I can always tweak these...Shield upgrades though are the KEY change. They will and should remain % based to stop you stacking multiple upgrades to get 5-10 million shields easily.

Thanks.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 14, 2018, 12:56:25 PM
Oh, yeah, I noticed most of the things you've mentioned. I was just wondering whether a 80% nerf (not sure how much you nerfed) is a little excessive when 75% nerf would do, but that's just my two cents.

Moreover, the Legendary +5 all turrets System Module Slot now requires 78 GW or something like that, which is 60% of what I already currently produce, while the "parasitic" and "harsh" shield upgrades require a percentage of what I already produce, which ends up being more favourable in my case.

So while I haven't yet upgraded my ship with Generators (and now, can't do for a long time still until I rebuild because of the aforementioned Xsotan "whale slap" wrecking my capital ship lol), using the "vanilla approach" still with my ship, the % Sytem Modules are actually in my favour rather than the flat 78 GW-costing ones.

If that's how you wanted it balanced, that's cool. This is simply a situation report. ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 14, 2018, 07:46:16 PM
Just played around some more. I think the Hyperspace System Modules are too costly in energy now. It takes 40 GW of energy for a simple green Hyperspace System Module upgrade. 40 GW isn't hard to produce if all you fly is a capital ship, but in the wake of mine being destroyed, I've been zooming around the galaxy in a tiddly little ferrari-like ship that is mostly just fast, agile and small. However, this means I can never produce the kind of power requirements to install even a basic Hyperspace System Module that isn't trash tier, which means I have to wait 20 seconds after each hyperspace jump.

I suggest making the Hyperspace System Module less costly in energy requirements than it is currently. Strike a balance between disallowing OP carrier dreadnoughts but also allow smaller ships to use the System Modules effectively.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack - Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW* *UPDATED*
Post by: Wayleran on January 14, 2018, 07:57:48 PM
Just played around some more. I think the Hyperspace System Modules are too costly in energy now. It takes 40 GW of energy for a simple green Hyperspace System Module upgrade. 40 GW isn't hard to produce if all you fly is a capital ship, but in the wake of mine being destroyed, I've been zooming around the galaxy in a tiddly little ferrari-like ship that is mostly just fast, agile and small. However, this means I can never produce the kind of power requirements to install even a basic Hyperspace System Module that isn't trash tier, which means I have to wait 20 seconds after each hyperspace jump.

I suggest making the Hyperspace System Module less costly in energy requirements than it is currently. Strike a balance between disallowing OP carrier dreadnoughts but also allow smaller ships to use the System Modules effectively.

If you notice the Hyperspace Upgrades WITH cooldown are very costly, the others aren't. I intended that to be the case and again I want people to have to sacrifice shield generator blocks and others for more energy generators in their ship.

But I will look into lowering it a bit. However I'm also thinking of slightly raising the high tier military and arbitrary turret upgrades even more. I want you to be restricted to only using a certain amount unless you have a big ship. The orange and purple ones with +4-6 turrets should be very costly IMO.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 14, 2018, 08:29:35 PM
I agree to the Turrets part, but I think the Hyperspace Engine System Module is one that all ships of all sizes should be able to benefit from, large or small. I understand the concerns about wanting players to put in more energy blocks, but we're talking energy modules here the size of twice my ship's size to be able to support an upgrade with even a 10% cooldown. That's a little intense :P
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01b: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: tchavre on January 15, 2018, 01:23:26 AM
hello
i don t fond to delete a wrong message
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01c: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 15, 2018, 11:03:46 PM
New Version: 0.15.7.01c

Updated Economy Mod and Modpack - Lowered the volume of goods back down to a more reasonable level. They're still much higher than normal to stop economy-breaking profits from raiding, but I definitely went overboard in the first iteration. ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01c: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 16, 2018, 06:57:40 AM
I wonder what are your thoughts on the lowest, trash-tier System Module Upgrades? As it stands, even the Petty level SMUs are unusable by basic ships that already cost in excess of 10K resources because of all the energy blocks. Is that overkill, or what you wanted?

Personally I'd think a balance that follows more of a sigmoid or exponential function might work a little better, so tiny ships can still benefit from SMUs. In my opinion, Petty and Common SMUs should be useful still, but I'm hard-pressed for use cases if I need to generate 10-25 GW on a tiny < 100 m ship only to get a little Velocity, Hyperspace Cooldown or Sector Sensor SMU.

Oh, yeah, on that Sector Sensor: Legendary tier costs 85 GW to operate, even though Legendary and Exceptional tiers for that SMU specifically make no difference at all (vanilla behaviour - for some reason this is true). Furthermore, 85 GW for a Sensor is a bit crazy if you ask me, but I don't know how easy it is to tweak individual SMUs, or that the balancing change is system-wide.

Also, feel free to tell me to stop with the feedback if it's getting stale. Just voicing my concerns and opinion. And don't let the constant stream of feedback fool you: I love your balance changes. They're killer. They could just use a little tweaking here and there.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01c: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 17, 2018, 01:53:05 AM
I wonder what are your thoughts on the lowest, trash-tier System Module Upgrades? As it stands, even the Petty level SMUs are unusable by basic ships that already cost in excess of 10K resources because of all the energy blocks. Is that overkill, or what you wanted?

...

No dude it's all good. I appreciate the feedback. I just want to actually play the game a bit too at this point and it doesn't seem like many other people are even really interested in these mods much either.

I thought I'd get more responses but aside from you and a couple others there's not that much interest. I honestly think the game is not getting much interest either at this point and I'm fearing the worst. Very little news from the devs and these things I'm trying to mod are also VERY simple things that should have been balanced and addressed months and months ago. So I'm not sure what the future for this game holds but I hope things start to progress more positively.

I'll keep working on my mods as best I can but you should definitely keep giving feedback and maybe even try to make your own mods as well bud.

Thanks.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01d: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 17, 2018, 02:34:24 AM
:>

That's the spirit!

Don't be disheartened; people like you and I will make this a great game, yet. ;)
I'm hoping the developers' silence towards the public is just them preparing some massive cool update news... or keeping it hush hush so they can spring something fun on us. If not, that's their decision of course, although I find it sad to see a community lose faith in devs because they're not communicating as much as the community would enjoy.

I know that behind the scenes they're still working busy busy and they do respond on some channels; I've been in contact regarding the Dutch translations and that was all rather quick correspondence, had my SPAMbox not flagged their mails and hidden them from me, lol stupid e-mail client

Anyway, yeah! Keep modding; I enjoy these DarkSoulsian balance tweaks to the game. And prepare yourself... I'm getting quite a good start into my very first own mod of anything ever! woo
It's gonna be a fun one. ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack 0.15.7.01d: Balancing & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 17, 2018, 03:00:21 AM
Thanks for the pep talk Shroob! :)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Wayleran on January 18, 2018, 10:30:48 PM
New version released:

Version: 0.15.7.1g: Rebalanced and reworked the Artifacts Mod. They are now much more interesting and useful with "hybrid" stats.

Version: 0.15.7.1f: Normalized the volume of Pirate Motherships in the Events mod because they were CRAZY BIG and I thought a bit too big and annoying to kill, since that mod also generates motherships more often than vanilla.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: SivCorp on January 19, 2018, 06:36:13 AM
Just finished the vanilla game, time to hit the mod circuit.  One question, with the economy changes, has the station costs gone down to compensate?  If not, I'm probably gonna skip that part, For if it is a difficult as I hope, money will still be in short supply...  ;D
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Wayleran on January 19, 2018, 08:56:23 AM
Just finished the vanilla game, time to hit the mod circuit.  One question, with the economy changes, has the station costs gone down to compensate?  If not, I'm probably gonna skip that part, For if it is a difficult as I hope, money will still be in short supply...  ;D

No I didn't take into account station costs, however if you give me feedback I can possibly tweak the economy mods.

I still think it's far too easy to accumulate vast amounts of credits in the game as it is from raiding and selling unneeded equipment. But I'm not quite sure without enough feedback from the community on what a "healthy" nerf to raiding and selling equipment profits would be.

P.S. - I just did a MAJOR revamp/fix to the main "Enemies" mod and it's working SOOOO much better now. Before the size and dps of turrets were scaling WITH enemy hull sizes and now that's fixed so you'll still have vanilla dps but enemies will be "bigger and badder"!!! :)

And as we speak I'm uploading a new version of the "Systems" mod that's a little less harsh and I think more balanced than before. Mainly Generator, Shield and Turret upgrades are FAR more balanced and you really have to devote a lot of energy to using high end shields and turret upgrades, so it's a natural reduction to the ludicrous shields and firepower you can normally achieve. I'm leaving most other upgrades alone though and they'll be at the extremely LOW energy requirements because I don't really see them being "game-breaking" really.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Ravien on January 19, 2018, 09:35:39 AM
Really looking forward to trying this all out! I've been waiting for the combat updates to hit before starting a new game but your mods and Shrooblord's commentary are making me want to play again right now.

Here's the thing: you're not just making enemies more difficult by increasing their health and damage, you're putting thought into things to try to shake up the normal game while keeping it balanced. The fact that you made enemies progressively harder as you get closer to the core makes me excited to try it out.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Wayleran on January 19, 2018, 09:42:45 AM
Really looking forward to trying this all out! I've been waiting for the combat updates to hit before starting a new game but your mods and Shrooblord's commentary are making me want to play again right now.

Here's the thing: you're not just making enemies more difficult by increasing their health and damage, you're putting thought into things to try to shake up the normal game while keeping it balanced. The fact that you made enemies progressively harder as you get closer to the core makes me excited to try it out.

Thanks bud! Hope you enjoy them. New version is going up NOW (0.15.7.2). Pretty stable now and balanced I think fairly well. But will always tweak it as needed or requested by the community.

And btw, the "Combat Update" like the other "updates" probably (unfortunately) won't address any of the imbalanced elements in the game or bugged features that have persisted for a long, long time now...

So I think these mods will be needed to really make the game feel somewhat challenging and to add a little more variety to the gameplay.

Thanks.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 19, 2018, 12:08:26 PM
NEW VERSION 0.15.7.2 released!

This is by far the best iteration of my mods/modpack to date!

I really feel most things are in a stable, balanced place. I may need to tweak some things based on community feedback, but all-in-all, this version plays great! I've improved some mods, reduced the harshness of some that were overkill and balanced out the rest. And mainly I removed a massive bug that was scaling turret dps/size...that's GONE!!! Your DPS will be pure vanilla while enemies will be 2x larger and 4x stronger. Normal feels relaxed with a healthy challenge and Veteran onwards should be pretty intense.

Try it out and let me know what you think.

I would recommend installing these mods to a "fresh" install of the client or simply replace your /data/scripts folder with a "vanilla" backup if you made one. Or you can uninstall and reinstall in Steam. You won't lose your saved galaxies but you'll get a fresh client to mod.

Thanks! Hope you guys enjoy it.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 19, 2018, 02:14:05 PM
And as we speak I'm uploading a new version of the "Systems" mod that's a little less harsh and I think more balanced than before. Mainly Generator, Shield and Turret upgrades are FAR more balanced and you really have to devote a lot of energy to using high end shields and turret upgrades, so it's a natural reduction to the ludicrous shields and firepower you can normally achieve. I'm leaving most other upgrades alone though and they'll be at the extremely LOW energy requirements because I don't really see them being "game-breaking" really.
Thank you! I've always agreed with the shield business, but I've had to resort to stocking up every tiny ship I happened to be piloting with Xsotan Artefacts instead of anything higher than Common SMUs due to the massive penalty incursion on anything even remotely useful. Even the Sector-wide Object Detector eats 80 GW of power... why? It's an Object Detector. You're not gonna beat the crap out of enemies with it, nor break the game. It's literally only there for your convenience, so it was rather inconvenient not to be able to use it properly. :P
I digress. Like I've said, thanks for balancing that out more!

yey, updates! me likey your fast iteration times
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Wayleran on January 19, 2018, 08:19:12 PM
Thank you! I've always agreed with the shield business, but I've had to resort to stocking up every tiny ship I happened to be piloting with Xsotan Artefacts instead of anything higher than Common SMUs due to the massive penalty incursion on anything even remotely useful. Even the Sector-wide Object Detector eats 80 GW of power... why? It's an Object Detector. You're not gonna beat the crap out of enemies with it, nor break the game. It's literally only there for your convenience, so it was rather inconvenient not to be able to use it properly. :P
I digress. Like I've said, thanks for balancing that out more!

yey, updates! me likey your fast iteration times

Yeah I rethought the entire Systems Mod philosophy.

I felt that the 2 shield upgrades were totally imbalanced. Shield Booster being OP with nearly no downside while the Energy to Shield Converter was much more balanced with the -% to generated energy, pretty much restricting players to using 1 GOOD one max. So I balanced them out and made them less effective (I mean shields are still OP OP but this helps a little).

The Generator Upgrades offered easily 80-100% increase of your produced energy totally NEGATING the battery systems AND making it far too easy to build a ship with very little Energy Generator blocks...so they were nerfed and I feel a MAX 50-60% increase per upgrade is still a healthy amount.

And finally, the Turret Upgrades (along with the totally FREE Artifact +5 upgrades) made it far too easy to get your ship a large amount of turrets and in effect crazy firepower with again, literally NO downside... So I made the low tier ones still pretty cheap for starting out the game in smaller ships, BUT made the +3-6 turret upgrades cost exponentially more so if you want to do A LOT of damage, it'll cost you energy and therefore area in your ship and also it'll cost you multiple upgrade slots too so you can't just have tons of firepower AND shields AND generator upgrades, while still having a lot more room for other things.

This feels really good I think and balances out what I felt was really affecting combat.

And like you said, I felt after considering it that other upgrades were more or less for convenience and don't really affect combat so much, so therefore shouldn't really be a concern energy-wise. If you are willing to use up a valuable upgrade slot for Trading, Hyperspace, Radar, etc... than you shouldn't really be restricted by energy requirements.

Note that the Artifacts Mod works hand-in-hand with this one and they really should always be installed together. I may in the future just combine them tbh because of how much more balanced it is with the changes I made to them AND I have to say I am really happy with the work I put into those in particular. Hehe... Humble brag, sorry. :)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 19, 2018, 08:25:22 PM
And like you said, I felt after considering it that other upgrades were more or less for convenience and don't really affect combat so much, so therefore shouldn't really be a concern energy-wise. If you are willing to use up a valuable upgrade slot, than Trading, Hyperspace, Radar, etc... shouldn't really be restricted by energy requirements.
Exactly. Not using that precious slot for weapons, energy or shields should be more than costly enough to warrant not incurring further penalty for using the other SMUs.

Out of interest, what do you think the Battery SMU is for, exactly? The only thing I can think of is so you can boost away for longer, or fire your plasma weapons for longer. After all, it doesn't help you if you're consuming too much power, since it doesn't add generated energy, nor does it help with hyperspace cooldown in anyway, as that is not governed by how much energy you have, but rather how many blocks your ship is built up out of and also how much hyperspace cooldown reduction in the way of other SMUs you currently have in place.

So I've never used a battery SMU. What do you use it for, or what do you think it should be used for?
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *COMPLETE REVAMP*
Post by: Wayleran on January 19, 2018, 08:45:11 PM
Out of interest, what do you think the Battery SMU is for, exactly? ...

Well that's the thing. It's hardly used at all by players because of how easy it is (was before my mods! :) ) to meet your required energy needs.

But with my changes I feel that players will be much closer to the MAX of their produced energy and therefore when they need to use extra energy for boosting, using energy weapons, hyperspace cooldown, etc... than they'll "dip" into their battery reserves. So having some energy container blocks on your ship now has a practical purpose and using a powerful battery upgrade to get 100%-160%+ more battery storage means you have that emergency reserve WHEN you need it and then replenish it when you don't.

For the most part even with my system upgrade mods you'll still probably rarely go over your max energy, but it's still a possibility and therefore at least brings batteries somewhat into play. So for LONG boosting and LONG battles while using energy weapons it's a backup reserve is all.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: SivCorp on January 19, 2018, 10:06:54 PM
Found what I think is a bug...

The volume of space that cargo takes up has been WAY overblown.  A single unit of cloths, that only sell for pennies, takes up 10 unit spaces.  The range of the expanded ships also seems much higher than the weapons they are using. 

So how are we to make any income here?  Can't salvage, for modules are dirt cheap now, can't trade, there is no way to fund a large enough ship to make a profit, and cant fight, for we cannot pay a large enough crew to make a big enough ship to withstand the larger ships now.  Something seems off in the balance.  I like the challenge, but I am NOT a fan of grinding games.... and the only option seems to be hit and run mining. 
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 19, 2018, 11:43:46 PM
Found what I think is a bug...

The volume of space that cargo takes up has been WAY overblown.  A single unit of cloths, that only sell for pennies, takes up 10 unit spaces.  The range of the expanded ships also seems much higher than the weapons they are using. 

So how are we to make any income here?  Can't salvage, for modules are dirt cheap now, can't trade, there is no way to fund a large enough ship to make a profit, and cant fight, for we cannot pay a large enough crew to make a big enough ship to withstand the larger ships now.  Something seems off in the balance.  I like the challenge, but I am NOT a fan of grinding games.... and the only option seems to be hit and run mining.

Well the Economy Mod, in particular the volume of goods, needs MAJOR fine tuning. I just thought that raiding with the vanilla volumes and getting 5k Body Armors then selling them and making 100's of millions in ONE SHOT was way too easy and broke the economy.

If you think those values are still too high let me know. I want to curtail making billions easily but I do see the need now for making vast amounts of credits for station/sector building and maintenance.

So I'll take a run through that mod tonight and possibly adjust the volumes by just a little bit instead of the values they're at now.

BTW, in the default script for the goods index it clearly is stated by the dev that...

"-- This file was generated automatically with a tool."

So they are WAY WAY out of balance due to that "tool" just spitting out numbers for the volumes and prices of goods. There's no real logic to it and no balance to profits you can acquire... So I do think it needs to be balanced through a mod, but yeah it's more than likely overkill on my part for this rough pass...so please give me as much feedback as you can, but keep in mind you can and will still see VAST profits even with those changes. But I will tweak them as the community sees fit.

Thanks, bud.

I'm going to LITERALLY update those values NOW and post a new version of the Economy Mod and the entire Modpack shortly. Check back in like an hour or two.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: SivCorp on January 20, 2018, 12:18:57 AM
Thanks, from playing around with it, probably a 1/2 value in volume would be sufficient.  Or, change all the level 1,2,3 items back to default, and just have the higher stuff take up more space. 

Though with as punishing as the early game is, keeping money around has become near impossible.  Every battle has high repair costs.... and little benefit.  It feels like it's become a race to get as large as possible, but for no other reason then to keep up. 

My play style is more nimble and guerrilla warfare styled.... so I love the fact that I have to hit and run on these tough enemies.  I just feel the reward for spending so much time working these baddies down has been neutralized.  System cards are all very power hungry, make no cash, and turrets of any good quality are hard to come by, for I can't make them with no money or cargo space to carry around the parts.   
Keep up the tweeks, I do like the direction of some of it... just need to reel back that nerf bat ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 20, 2018, 12:27:56 AM
I never engage in combat until I have at least some shields. Early game combat, modded or vanilla, is a bit too imbalanced without shields. Then of course once you start getting more shields THEY become imbalanced. LOL

The dev really just needs to add diminishing returns on Shield Generator blocks like he has on Hyperspace Core. So the more you use and the bigger the ship the less advantage you get. That's the main thing I am trying to fix with all these mods really...how OP shields are. Shields should roughly cap at maybe 1x or 2x of your ship's hull size. That would be nice. A 500k hull ship should realistically only be able to support maybe 750k to 1m shields TOPS with an upgrade in too...

Anyways I'm going to make another pass at the goods index and maybe even make equipment sell prices 50% instead of 25%.

Oh and of course, don't forget to claim and sell "claimable asteroids" that's the best way to make money early on.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Ravien on January 20, 2018, 12:32:01 AM
Something I noticed is that the listed sell value of system upgrades is different than how much you actually get from selling them. I found a high end upgrade that said it sold for about 90k but I got over 300k for selling it, for example.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 20, 2018, 01:18:29 AM
Something I noticed is that the listed sell value of system upgrades is different than how much you actually get from selling them. I found a high end upgrade that said it sold for about 90k but I got over 300k for selling it, for example.

UPDATE: Yeah that was a problem. It was only affecting the price shown in the GUI not the actually amount you received. I fixed it however in Version 0.15.7.2a so please download that and install over the other version from like a couple hours ago. LOL :)


Version 0.15.7.2a is now available.

I fixed a bug where only the shown price in the GUI was affected and not the amount you received. I also reduced the sell price reduction to 50% instead of 25%.

I also drastically modified the volumes of goods to be either vanilla or maybe ~2x and in rare circumstances ~3x. I think a lot of people found the volume mod to be way too much and made getting credits for things like stations and stuff feel too grindy. So I went back down quite a bit and this should only SLIGHTLY reduce our insane raiding profits and balance out the economy a little.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Ravien on January 20, 2018, 05:23:53 AM
Thank you for both changes!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 20, 2018, 08:47:43 PM
Thank you for both changes!

No, thank YOU for pointing them out. Hehe.

TBH, big oversight on my part about the prices only being changed in the GUI. Duh!!! :P

Hope you enjoy the mods and please continue to leave feedback and look for new versions/updates/fixes.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 20, 2018, 08:53:36 PM
I've written a couple of small mods to remove AI fighters from the game because in my opinion all they do is add issues to the game AND are nearly impossible to kill.

They can wipe out sectors because of the fact they'll persist after their carrier is gone and slowly widdle away at any stations/ships in the sector.

So my question is whether you guys would like those mods too? Killing AI fighters is very tedious and they cause more problems than they're worth IMHO, so let me know. I'm thinking of either releasing a standalone mod for them or including a separate mod in the individual "Galaxy Mods" download and NOT putting them in the "Modpack" in case people really don't want that change.

Ok, thanks guys. All feedback is welcomed.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Ravien on January 20, 2018, 11:07:02 PM
I think making it an optional download would be awesome. That is a good fix until the combat update happens that gives us actual anti-fighter weapons. While it's pretty cool watching the AI use fighters in their big faction battles, I think people would appreciate that mod.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 20, 2018, 11:58:28 PM
I think making it an optional download would be awesome. That is a good fix until the combat update happens that gives us actual anti-fighter weapons. While it's pretty cool watching the AI use fighters in their big faction battles, I think people would appreciate that mod.

I'm going to release version 0.15.7.3 tonight or tomorrow and I'll include in the "Galaxy Mods" folder a separate install file for "No AI Fighters" that will mod the xsotan, shipgenerator and asyncshipgenerator files to spawn "Carriers" with 0 hangars, meaning of course 0 fighters. That was the best and most stable way I found to do that.

Also just a heads up I was thinking of ONLY releasing the "Galaxy Mods" folder with all the mods separately and not have the confusing "Modpack" one too because some people weren't quite sure the difference and a lot of people I know want to pick and choose what mods to use anyways.

Ok thanks.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 21, 2018, 01:01:25 AM
BTW, in the default script for the goods index it clearly is stated by the dev that...

"-- This file was generated automatically with a tool."

So they are WAY WAY out of balance due to that "tool" just spitting out numbers for the volumes and prices of goods. There's no real logic to it and no balance to profits you can acquire... So I do think it needs to be balanced through a mod, but yeah it's more than likely overkill on my part for this rough pass...so please give me as much feedback as you can, but keep in mind you can and will still see VAST profits even with those changes. But I will tweak them as the community sees fit.
No, I don't think that's what "generated with a tool" means. I think it means the list was compiled by a tool, i.e. pulling together a bunch of resources on what are goods for trade and putting them all into one, concise list, rather than the tool "randomly" generating all the values for the goods. I could be wrong, though, of course, but that makes more sense to my mind than the alternative.

Either way, I'd like to see the goods tweaked so that the higher tier goods are more like what you propose, but lower tier are left untouched. Simple water, for example, takes up a lot of cargo space now, and sells for literally zilch on the market. My poor Water Collector is only making 6k a trade every ten, fifteen minutes or so. Not a super worthwhile investment at the moment, due to the AI Cargo Haulers not being able to actually transport more than that because of the sheer volume water takes up now. :P

But I see you mention you've already tweaked it. Thanks.

Just to add my two cents: I think cargo volume should scale up somewhat exponentially together with whatever the item is worth on the market, and to reasonable and logical sense. For example, bulky things like Mining and War Robots should definitely take up huge amounts of cargo space, but Body Armour, while expensive, should not take up as much (though more than in vanilla). Meanwhile, carbon, water, oxygen and the likes should take up a very little amount of cargo space, vanilla amounts even, if that's appropriate with your vision for this mod.

I agree on the not-splitting-the-mod-into-two-separate-downloads change you propose. Makes more sense. I was always a little confused and had to think back which of the two it was that I was meant to be downloading.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 21, 2018, 06:13:16 AM
No, I don't think that's what "generated with a tool" means. I think it means the list was compiled by a tool, i.e. pulling together a bunch of resources on what are goods for trade and putting them all into one, concise list, rather than the tool "randomly" generating all the values for the goods. I could be wrong, though, of course, but that makes more sense to my mind than the alternative.

Either way, I'd like to see the goods tweaked so that the higher tier goods are more like what you propose, but lower tier are left untouched. Simple water, for example, takes up a lot of cargo space now, and sells for literally zilch on the market. My poor Water Collector is only making 6k a trade every ten, fifteen minutes or so. Not a super worthwhile investment at the moment, due to the AI Cargo Haulers not being able to actually transport more than that because of the sheer volume water takes up now. :P

But I see you mention you've already tweaked it. Thanks.

Just to add my two cents: I think cargo volume should scale up somewhat exponentially together with whatever the item is worth on the market, and to reasonable and logical sense. For example, bulky things like Mining and War Robots should definitely take up huge amounts of cargo space, but Body Armour, while expensive, should not take up as much (though more than in vanilla). Meanwhile, carbon, water, oxygen and the likes should take up a very little amount of cargo space, vanilla amounts even, if that's appropriate with your vision for this mod.

I agree on the not-splitting-the-mod-into-two-separate-downloads change you propose. Makes more sense. I was always a little confused and had to think back which of the two it was that I was meant to be downloading.

Well Shroob, actually I'm uploading a new version 0.15.7.3 soon and I am going to just have the 1 download. People will have to install the 3 mods seperately but that literally takes only seconds.

Also I'm COMBINING the "Systems" and "Artifacts" mods into one AND I've removed the civil turret mod because that, like all the others I recently decided to leave alone, does not affect combat at all and shouldn't be punishing to equip.

And I'm totally removing the "Economy" mods for 2 reasons.

The first is because like you and others have stated you NEED a lot of credits if you decide to start "building sectors" and building stations, etc...

And the second reason is that the "Shop" mod only reduced the already existing 75% reduction to sell prices on equipement by another 50%... So essentially the formula IS sell price = price * 0.25 and I was only making it sell price = price * 0.125. Trivial difference really. And the "Goods Index" mod I kept tweaking and tweaking but I eventually felt that most things are either at a good volume already, OR are too "important" to crafting/trading etc. to modify... So it's just not worth even messing with them IMO.

Most people really didn't seem to like and/or care about the economy changes and I'd rather just focus on balancing and enhancing combat and events now. The other 3 mods are doing that and working really well so that's what I will continue to focus on too.

I'm going to test out the new version and post it probably tomorrow but it's generally more streamlined and completely combat/balance focused.

Oh and lastly I'm going to include in the new .zip folder a "No AI Fighters" optional mod for people like myself who just want to totally do away with AI fighters because all they do is cause issues and are nearly impossible and also very tedious to kill.

Look for that update and I think after that I'll be done posting new versions for awhile because things are in a pretty stable state now.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Amber on January 21, 2018, 08:30:55 AM
Looking at this mod, and got a usability question: have you actually checked if the subsystem mod gets the energy generation to negastive values or not within reasonable configs on large ships? I mean, I'm flying an 8-slot thing and am planning to upgrade it to what seems to end up being 11-slot thing, and I was planning to mostly fill these with shield boosters along with turrets (actually, the ship I'm currently flying has 6 turret mods and 2 shields, one of which I swap out for other stuff on demand).
Anyway, my concern is that there may be an issue of "what am I gonna do with so many slots" when the requirements are %-based, and large ships are already not really so big a boost given the... stuff
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 21, 2018, 01:00:25 PM
Well, Wayleran, I liked your Economy Mod, but was just giving feedback on how it could improve (like you asked for), so I'd be sad to see it go. But you do you!

Amber, this game has had a history of "funny Math" when it does its percentage calculations. If "negative Energy Generation" is indeed possible, that's not a bug added by this mod, but one that becomes apparent sooner because of the percentage tweaking this mod applies to the base game's balancing. You would experience the bug with or without mod, though you'd need more Energy to Shield Converter System Module Upgrades before you saw it happen, if playing in vanilla.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 21, 2018, 03:49:32 PM
Just to follow up on that: I've tested in-game, and Generated Energy can never go below zero.

Also, if you add one Upgrade that takes out 40% or the Generated Energy, and another that takes out 40% of the Generated Energy, the Energy you're actually generating will by 20% of the original produced amount of Energy. So all bonuses and penalties are first stacked on top of each other, then applied (they're not multiplicative). In other words, it's not that if you generate 40% less energy, then add another system that takes out 40% of the produced energy, you're producing 40% less of 40% less; you're producing 40%+40% = 80% less in total.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Modpack: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW VERSION*
Post by: Wayleran on January 21, 2018, 04:50:03 PM
Looking at this mod, and got a usability question: have you actually checked if the subsystem mod gets the energy generation to negastive values or not within reasonable configs on large ships? I mean, I'm flying an 8-slot thing and am planning to upgrade it to what seems to end up being 11-slot thing, and I was planning to mostly fill these with shield boosters along with turrets (actually, the ship I'm currently flying has 6 turret mods and 2 shields, one of which I swap out for other stuff on demand).
Anyway, my concern is that there may be an issue of "what am I gonna do with so many slots" when the requirements are %-based, and large ships are already not really so big a boost given the... stuff

Hi Amber. As Shroob said, what your describing is a aspect of the game and not a result of my mods. The percentage is taken from your initial, unaltered generated energy. Also the "Shield Booster" is slightly less effective compared to the "Energy to Shield Upgrade"(which no one used because of how imbalanced the Booster is in vanilla)

I intentionally made both shield upgrades use %-based requirements specifically to restrict the use of these to no more than 1 or 2 max and I lowered their effective bonuses because as their are, shields are WAY too strong in this game. I think the changes to the shield upgrades are really well balanced now and only slightly affect the ludicrous amount of shields a player can achieve anyways.

In vanilla it's so easy to get literally your shield to 3-5 million or more, and EVEN with my dps mods and other adjustments I've made, combat is still pretty casual on Normal and Veteran if you focus on taking your time and using as many shield generator blocks as possible.

That was also the philosophy I had with the reduction to Generator Upgrades and the exponential increase in Turret Upgrades energy requirements. It should be "COSTLY" to use multiple shield or turret upgrades, IMHO. You need to make conscious decisions on either being defensively stronger or offensively stronger...not simply be both with little to no downside. It's all about balancing combat and I think my most recent iteration (going up RIGHT now) version 0.15.7.3 is the best balance I've found.

Try the mods and see what you think but keep in mind you should START out on Normal or Veteran (or change your existing server.ini) because enemies are obviously a lot more dangerous and you should avoid combat or at least be super cautious until you get to the Naonite stages and get some shields...

If you haven't used mods before I'd also recommend backing up your "/data/scripts" folder so you can easily undo any mods. The only files affected by mods reside in that folder and you can easily swap in the default scripts and/or mods.

Lastly, I'm streamlining my mods to simply be 3 categories and I'm only having 1 download, "Galaxy Mods", which will have all the mods in different folders so you can pick and choose which you want to use, BUT all the mods work really well in conjunction with each other.

Thanks, let me know if you have any other questions or feedback.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Ravien on January 22, 2018, 05:21:06 AM
Good to hear! Look forward to the new version.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 22, 2018, 09:06:11 PM
Good to hear! Look forward to the new version.

Thanks bud, the new version is up BUT I definitely need to tweak the systems a little.

The Arbitrary AND Military Turret Upgrades are going to have their top end energy requirements reduced so their aren't as harsh a plenty but there's still a substantial "cost" to equip the TOP TIER ones (+4, +5, +6). But the numbers right now are a bit too much IMO.

I'm also going to make the "Shield Booster" 75% less effective but with LESS energy cost and the "Energy to Shield Converter" the same at 50% and lower the energy cost a little bit... This is because the "Booster" upgrade also gives you shield recharge AND the crucial "upon depletion: recharge 25% of your shields once every 5 mins"... so I want that one to offer less shield durability and be more of the "recharge/upon depletion" upgrade AND the other one to be a straight up increase to total shields. This way the normal player should have 1 or EACH equipped for the 2 distinct bonus types...

Also I'm going to remove ALL the energy requirements for my Artifacts EXCEPT the shield and turret related ones, but those are going to be cut dramatically too in order to reflect the changes to the normal upgrade counterparts. The other artifacts shouldn't have any cost because I've changed my philosophy on "non-combat", "utility" upgrades.

I'll work on this today and post it asap.

These small changes I think will keep almost all the fun and challenge but get rid of some "overkill" on my part. :)

Thanks
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 22, 2018, 09:32:35 PM
This is because the "Booster" upgrade also gives you shield recharge AND the crucial "upon depletion: recharge 25% of your shields once every 5 mins"...
Funny thing is, not sure if you've noticed, that not all Shield Booster SMUs have this recharge upon depletion trait. It seems to be random whether they do or not. Is there a way for you to balance all Shield Boosters with this in mind? Can you read whether a specific SMU has the recharge bonus, and penalise / balance out Energy Requirements based on that, or do you have to hit all Shield Boosters with a nerf? Mostly asking because I'm curious.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 22, 2018, 11:45:23 PM
This is because the "Booster" upgrade also gives you shield recharge AND the crucial "upon depletion: recharge 25% of your shields once every 5 mins"...
Funny thing is, not sure if you've noticed, that not all Shield Booster SMUs have this recharge upon depletion trait. It seems to be random whether they do or not. Is there a way for you to balance all Shield Boosters with this in mind? Can you read whether a specific SMU has the recharge bonus, and penalise / balance out Energy Requirements based on that, or do you have to hit all Shield Boosters with a nerf? Mostly asking because I'm curious.

In an older version I did just that, all "Booster" had both and a higher likelihood of having  the "depletion" bonus...

So I will do that. I'll ensure that ALL Shield Boosters have BOTH Durability (at around 75% less than normal) and Recharge at the normal levels but leave the "depletion" bonus as is in terms of RNG chances to spawn on an item, because it's pretty high with blues or above anyways...

So a "great" purple Shield Booster would be roughly:
Shield Durability           +20-25%
Shield Recharge Rate    +40-50%

Generated Energy         -10-12.5% (half Shield Durability amount)

"Upon depletion: Recharges 25% of your shield" chance to spawn on item based on higher rarity as it is in vanilla. 100% on purples, 75% on orange, etc...


And a "great" purple Energy to Shield Converter would be roughly:
Shield Durability           +50-70%
Generated Energy         -25-35% (half Shield Durability amount)

With these numbers a normal player can and should be able to equip one of each for a total of about 80% Shield Durability, 45% Shield Recharge Rate and get the "Upon depletion" bonus for a total of around -40% cost to Generated Energy...

I think that's a great compromise and allows people to have 2 distinctly different shield upgrades equipped without getting +100%-500% to shields, like is capable in vanilla with multiple upgrades equipped.

The Teleporter Key 5 I reworked will be adjusted to a 60%/-30% Energy to Shield Converter to compensate and is essentially a nearly perfect purple.

I also reworked the Artifacts now to be REALLY useful even if you get a good purple "counterpart" to them, because of their new energy costs, or lack thereof, AND their unique "hybrid" stats.

I'll keep you all posted but it's about done now, I just need to test out the changes first.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 23, 2018, 03:13:22 AM
Update 1/22/2018: Version 0.15.7.4
    - Both shield upgrades have been reworked to offer DISTINCTLY different benefits so a player will likely want to have at least 1 of each equipped.
    - Shield Boosters now require less energy but also have less "Shield Durability" and always have "Shield Recharge Rate" with the possibility of the crucially important "Upon depletion: Recharges 25% of your shield." bonus!
    - Energy to Shield Converter upgrades are now THE way to get higher end "Shield Durability" benefits. In vanilla they offered little benefit over the Shield Boosters, but now both are different and work well together.
    - Turret upgrades have been reworked to require slightly less energy, but are still costly at higher rarities to balance out end game dps potential.
    - Alien Artifacts now have no energy costs, except for the turret and shield related ones.
    - Added "+2 unarmed" to Artifact IV so it's now +5 armed, +2 unarmed. This change was to keep it valuable even compared to a normal "+5 turret" counterpart.
    - Artifact V is now a +60%/-35% Energy to Shield Converter which is slightly more energy efficient than a normal legendary upgrade with that Shield Durability bonus.
    - Some Pirate and Xsotan ships seemed to be a bit TOO big and fights were slightly more tedious than they were fun. So some of those ship's volumes were modified slightly to still offer longer encounters and challenge while not being too "grindy".
    - Slightly increased the volume of spawned "traders" in the "Trader Attack" and "Convoi Distress Signal" events so they were able to survive a bit longer and give players time to "save" them. Also the spawned trader ship in the Trader Attack event will spawn more towards the center of the sector with the pirates usually trailing behind "on their tails" so it will be easier for players (and even alliance ships) to come to the rescue instead of having to fly too far out first.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Avorimon on January 23, 2018, 03:49:28 AM
Hey Wayleran,

Very nice ModPack. I haven't played vanilla a lot so i don't know if i'm aware of what all your changes actually mean but i like the spirit.

First off: I liked the Economy Mod, i think im playing 0.15.7.2a where it was still included. If i understand correctly the volumes for goods are higher in this version than in vanilla. Which forced me to build a bigger cargo transporter and that felt pretty cool.

I felt salvaging got a lot more profitable, not credit-wise but since all ships are stronger (they are, aren't they?) the wreckages have much more ress. But again, only been playing this game for a week or so..

Also, do your mods turn the Xsotan automatically into enemies?
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 23, 2018, 04:10:12 AM
Hey Wayleran,

Very nice ModPack. I haven't played vanilla a lot so i don't know if i'm aware of what all your changes actually mean but i like the spirit.

First off: I liked the Economy Mod, i think im playing 0.15.7.2a where it was still included. If i understand correctly the volumes for goods are higher in this version than in vanilla. Which forced me to build a bigger cargo transporter and that felt pretty cool.

I felt salvaging got a lot more profitable, not credit-wise but since all ships are stronger (they are, aren't they?) the wreckages have much more ress. But again, only been playing this game for a week or so..

Also, do your mods turn the Xsotan automatically into enemies?

Hey bud. Welcome to the game and the forums and thanks for the kind words.

I decided to abandon the economy mod because, as I stated earlier, the effect on the overall game wasn't that noticeable and/or positive. Also you really NEED those extra credits AND goods to get heavily into station and sector building, so ultimately I felt the changes were unwarranted.

As far as the Xsotan, no my mods don't automatically turn them into enemies. They always appear first as "neutral" upon entering the sector than get hostile on their own. The dev felt like that reflects their mysterious, unknown nature but of course after you first run into them, they're no longer really "unknown", right?! LOL

I did change their names to what I think are cooler sounding names like "Xsotan Hunter/Reaver/Dreadnought/Mothership" instead of the default "Small/Big Unknown Ship". That's just a cosmetic change however but I think it's cool.  8)

My mod does make them BIGGER and STRONGER though. In vanilla Xsotan ships are meant to spawn as 0.5x the volume of an average ship and 0.75x the dps...

I felt that they shouldn't be measly little ships with low dps, so I simply changed those calculations to both be essentially 1x to an average ship in the sector. Now during an "Alien Attack" the Hunters are 1x, the Reavers are 2x, the Dreadnought is 3x and the Mothership is 5x... but I'm still testing out those numbers because too small and you cut through them like butter and too BIG and the fights can drag on and become tedious.

The newest version though is 0.15.7.4 that I just posted and is MUCH better IMHO than those older ones. Combat/Events and the Systems mainly are much more fun and balanced. So I'd recommend you update to that mod and check back often too. I'd do a full reinstall of Avorion so you're modding a "fresh" set of scripts to undo any old/obsolete mods that may still be in there. But let me know what you think and thanks for the feedback.

P.S. - You won't lose your ships or galaxies by uninstalling and reinstalling Avorion but since I changed a lot of the systems mods and no longer have modded versions of the non-combat related systems, it's just a good idea to go back to vanilla first then re-mod.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 23, 2018, 06:28:00 AM
Hey Wayleran,

First off: I liked the Economy Mod...

Well, since I don't need to totally abandon it, I posted a standalone version of it in it's own post. This is a NEW version of it also that's much more reasonable. I only modified a selection of highly priced goods by 2x-3x max. This will curb some of the raiding profits you'll receive and make trading a bit more challenging but not really affect anything in a negative way I think.

You can find that post here: http://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php?topic=4408.msg23351#msg23351 (http://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php?topic=4408.msg23351#msg23351)

For instance, things like Body Armors went from about 1.5 to 4.5 and War Robots went from about 8 to 24 just as a couple of examples. But those things are also of lower importance too. If something was highly priced AND had high importance, I either left it alone or modified it very slightly (less than 2x).

See how this feels and tell me what you think.

I am however working on, what I feel, is an EVEN BETTER SOLUTION! I'm going to look into making ALL items that come from destroyed cargo vessels and stations be marked as "Stolen". This will mean you'll HAVE to either sell them to a Smuggler Hideout for 25% of their value OR debrand them for 50% of their value, essentially cutting the profits down by 50%...

This I think may be a more elegant solution if I can do it. You'll still get all the goods you would have but you'll have to decide whether to sell them stolen for a substantial discount OR debrand them to use for yourself or resell to another station.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 23, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
I discovered that as far as freighter ships are concerned they spawn with 500 goods for events like trader attacks, etc...

So I'm thinking of adjusting that number because it literally seems to have no relation to volumes. So it will spawn with 500 volume 1 items OR 500 volume 20 items. It's the last function in shiputility.lua. I'm going to test out changing it to 100 instead of 500. This is a better way to do it though for these ships at least because it doesn't involve changing individual goods' volumes which can get messy.

I'll test it out and see, and if anyone else wants to test it out either change shiputility.lua:

line 288:    entity:addCargo(g:good(), 500)

from 500 to whatever or just PM me and I'll send you the modded file, but it's easy to just play around with that 1 line to see for yourself.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Shrooblord on January 23, 2018, 02:51:48 PM
Oh geebus Wayleran I've still got my WINRAR window open for trying to install 15.7.3 and already a new version is out. xD
Can we get auto-updates to mods already? :P

So I will do that. I'll ensure that ALL Shield Boosters have BOTH Durability (at around 75% less than normal) and Recharge at the normal levels but leave the "depletion" bonus as is in terms of RNG chances to spawn on an item, because it's pretty high with blues or above anyways...

So a "great" purple Shield Booster would be roughly:
Shield Durability           +20-25%
Shield Recharge Rate    +40-50%

Generated Energy         -10-12.5% (half Shield Durability amount)

"Upon depletion: Recharges 25% of your shield" chance to spawn on item based on higher rarity as it is in vanilla. 100% on purples, 75% on orange, etc...
Oh, I see. So the penalty to Generated Energy is completely independent from whether or not the SMU has a "upon depletion" effect. Cool.

- Alien Artifacts now have no energy costs, except for the turret and shield related ones.
Oh? Intriguing. I wonder, what made you go for a change of direction from your parasitic upgrades viewpoint?

- Some Pirate and Xsotan ships seemed to be a bit TOO big and fights were slightly more tedious than they were fun. So some of those ship's volumes were modified slightly to still offer longer encounters and challenge while not being too "grindy".
Thanks! I was starting to notice the grind, myself. You're quick on the draw!

As far as the Xsotan, no my mods don't automatically turn them into enemies. They always appear first as "neutral" upon entering the sector than get hostile on their own.
Actually, no! They remain neutral to you, the player, as long as you never fire a weapon in their general direction, or a mining laser on a Resource Asteroid while they're around. They'll always target NPCs first, and they'll leave your entire Sector worth of player ships alone if you don't provoke them yourself. Source: my very bustling player-made Sector filled with 18 of my ships and constantly abuzz with 10 Trader NPCs.

Hey Wayleran,

First off: I liked the Economy Mod...

Well, since I don't need to totally abandon it, I posted a standalone version of it in it's own post. This is a NEW version of it also that's much more reasonable. I only modified a selection of highly priced goods by 2x-3x max. This will curb some of the raiding profits you'll receive and make trading a bit more challenging but not really affect anything in a negative way I think.
Yey! I missed the Economy Balancing part of this modpack. :>

So I'm thinking of adjusting that number because it literally seems to have no relation to volumes. So it will spawn with 500 volume 1 items OR 500 volume 20 items. It's the last function in shiputility.lua. I'm going to test out changing it to 100 instead of 500. This is a better way to do it though for these ships at least because it doesn't involve changing individual goods' volumes which can get messy.
Interesting. I'd like to see some more randomisation in this field, actually. Everything in this game is randomised, so why not also the amount of contents in a Trader's vessel?

----

I'm glad to see your "pendulum swing" approach to balancing working out for you: harsh nerfs followed by slightly less intense buffs followed by more refined nerfs followed by a minor buff. It's basically the binary-search way of approaching balancing, trying to hit the sweet spot just right by first starting with bounding leaps and progressively hopping closer to the bulls-eye with increasingly more elegant strides. Keep up the good work!

P.S.
Not sure if you've noticed, but this forum has a nice automatic list function BBCode, in case you don't want to manually type in the four spaces and hypens deal. Your choice of course; just letting you know.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 23, 2018, 10:09:38 PM
Oh? Intriguing. I wonder, what made you go for a change of direction from your parasitic upgrades viewpoint?

Because of my total change towards the "non-combat" upgrades in general. If it doesn't impact combat (Shields, Turrets and to a lesser extent Generator Upgrades) than I don't see the need to punish people for using "utility" upgrades like battery, radar, hyperspace, etc...

My main philosophy is to somewhat limit a player's ability to just stack shield and turret upgrades with nearly zero downside and be overwhelming tanky AND have high dps. Now you can still have 2-3 shield upgrades but it'll cost you a lot of energy and you'll need more generator blocks to compensate and also you can have multiple high end turret upgrades but, again, it's a decision you'll have to make and sacrifice resources in your ship for more energy blocks.


Quote
- Some Pirate and Xsotan ships seemed to be a bit TOO big and fights were slightly more tedious than they were fun. So some of those ship's volumes were modified slightly to still offer longer encounters and challenge while not being too "grindy".
Thanks! I was starting to notice the grind, myself. You're quick on the draw!

Yeah it still may need further tweaking because me and my buddy haven't gotten into the core yet on my unofficial "real world scenario" testing server. LOL


Quote
I'm glad to see your "pendulum swing" approach to balancing working out for you: harsh nerfs followed by slightly less intense buffs followed by more refined nerfs followed by a minor buff. It's basically the binary-search way of approaching balancing, trying to hit the sweet spot just right by first starting with bounding leaps and progressively hopping closer to the bulls-eye with increasingly more elegant strides. Keep up the good work

Thanks bud but I think I need to just reverse the process. Start softer and slowly increase the mods, as opposed to the other way around. Because I don't want new people to try out the mods and be discouraged if I made them a bit on the difficult end. I can always buff mods as easily as nerf them.  ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 24, 2018, 02:35:00 PM
I'm not sure if your mod is the cause, but I had a "massive" alien attack warning but only 4 alien ships showed up. I know in the past there would be a whole fleet of like a dozen ships.

I hadn't played in awhile so forgive me if that is a change in the base game since I last played a lot.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 24, 2018, 04:03:16 PM
Yes, that's due to this mod. I think the "severity" of the ambush, the thing that tells you whether it's a tiny fleet or an armada, is determined by some "attack points" pool. That is to say, say that an easy encounter has 100 omicron to divide amongst enemies, and a hard encounter has 1000 omicron. In vanilla, enemies were weaker, so both scenarios would produce far more ships than if you have this mod installed. With this mod, the 1000 omicron are more quickly "used up" by the more powerful enemies spawning. Does that illustrate the mechanic behind the spawning in an understandable way?

I believe that in reality there is also a "hull points pool" together with the "attack points pool", which could help explain how that "pool" is exhausted sooner, since this mod massively amplifies enemy hull sizes.

I will agree that seeing a message like "omigod you're gonna get rekt by an entire armada" will initially make you raise an eyebrow if that "armada" turns out to be four ships instead of nine.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 24, 2018, 10:33:59 PM
I'm not sure if your mod is the cause, but I had a "massive" alien attack warning but only 4 alien ships showed up. I know in the past there would be a whole fleet of like a dozen ships.

I hadn't played in awhile so forgive me if that is a change in the base game since I last played a lot.

Yeah it's the mod but I not only renamed and resized the Xsotan ships, I also adjusted the number of them slightly to compensate for the increase in both enemy ship's hull and dps. However in the newest version I've adjusted the amount of ships that arrive for some events. It's still 4 for the "massive" attack but one of them is a "Dreadnought" that doesn't even exist in vanilla. And the "entire fleet" attack now has 5 ships including a "Xsotan Mothership" which also doesn't exist in vanilla.

And if you pay close attention to the wording of that 2nd (of the 3) notifications, it will hint at what level of encounter is about to occur.

They breakdown as:

Level 1: 3 Xsotan Hunters (small)
Level 2: 2 Xsotan Hunters and a Reaver (large)
Level 3: 2 Xsotan Hunters, a Reaver and a Dreadnought (massive)
Level 4: 2 Xsotan Hunters, a Reaver, a Dreadnought and a Mothership (entire fleet)


Version 0.15.7.5 will slightly modify these and some other events because I felt some encounters were taking too long and were getting too "grindy".


P.S. - I came up with an even better solution to my "Economy Mod". Instead of modifying the volumes of certain goods, I've discovered a way to make trading ships spawn with less than the fixed 500 amount which isn't even dependent on the volume or price of the goods, it's just a stable 500 which I think is silly. And also to reduce the maxCargoSpace of stations so they can't have an unreasonably high number of expensive goods and this change also impacts the ships that deliver/sell to them on their trading routes too. I have the mods done now but want to test them before release. And I'll be re-incorporating the Economy Mod back into this Modpack if I get this new approach working well.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 25, 2018, 02:53:31 AM
Yeah that makes sense. And I did notice the dreadnought and have even seen a few pirate motherships and even a xsotan one! Pretty cool!

I don't know if there's a way to make some of the attacks still spawn greater numbers of weaker ships to give some more variety to the attacks or if you want to do that for your mod. There's something satisfying about fighting off a dozen alien ships.

Liking the mods so far!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 25, 2018, 08:20:24 PM
Wayleran, do you think you could add Swarm Events? I'd love to see one instance of Xsotan trying a different strategy: not 4 decent-at-combat ships, but 1 mothership and 15 tiny little shit craft that are meant to swarm and overwhelm me.

Also, yes please - I'd like to see the Economy Mod reintegrated into the main suite. ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 26, 2018, 10:58:04 PM
New Version Released!

Update 1/26/2018: Version 0.15.7.5

 - The Economy Mod has been re-integrated and COMPLETELY redesigned so it now only impacts raiding and has little to no negative impact of legitimate trading.

 - Trading ships will now carry less goods overall and therefore yield less profits, however players can still "farm" high value goods (like Mining Robots or Body Armors) by paying attention and finding good trade routes and simply waiting on more trade ships to enter the sector.

 - Pirates have had their hulls and dps slightly increased after the last version of the mod nerfed them a little too much. I'm fine-tuning things like this to find a balance between making enemies more challenging while also not adding "grind" to the game.

 - Both Pirate Attacks and Convoi/Fake Distress Signals have also had the number of enemies that spawn slightly modified. Some harder encounters may have 1 or 2 more enemies than before, while easier ones are still the same.

 - Alien Attack events have also been adjusted to have an extra ship in most cases and the sizes of the Xsotan Reavers, Dreadnoughts and Motherships have also been increased because they too were nerfed too much in the previous version of the mod.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 27, 2018, 03:35:44 AM
New Version Released!

Update 1/26/2018: Version 0.15.7.5

 - The Economy Mod has been re-integrated and COMPLETELY redesigned so it now only impacts raiding and has little to no negative impact of legitimate trading.

 - Trading ships will now carry less goods overall and therefore yield less profits, however players can still "farm" high value goods (like Mining Robots or Body Armors) by paying attention and finding good trade routes and simply waiting on more trade ships to enter the sector.

 - Pirates have had their hulls and dps slightly increased after the last version of the mod nerfed them a little too much. I'm fine-tuning things like this to find a balance between making enemies more challenging while also not adding "grind" to the game.

 - Both Pirate Attacks and Convoi/Fake Distress Signals have also had the number of enemies that spawn slightly modified. Some harder encounters may have 1 or 2 more enemies than before, while easier ones are still the same.

 - Alien Attack events have also been adjusted to have an extra ship in most cases and the sizes of the Xsotan Reavers, Dreadnoughts and Motherships have also been increased because they too were nerfed too much in the previous version of the mod.

That is excellent news! Thanks for all the updates!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 27, 2018, 09:44:43 PM
That is excellent news! Thanks for all the updates!

You're welcome. Hope you enjoy it.

The changes to the size and strength of some encounters along with the increase to the hull sizes of some enemies should make a nice difference. I went a bit too hard on nerfing them after the last couple versions. But I think this may be better.

And the economy mod, like it states, is TOTALLY new so I'd recommend trying that out and tell me what you think.

Keep in mind that ONLY trading ships are impacted by this but they are pretty consistent now in terms of the amount you'll get from destroying them. If you decide to take the time to destroy an entire station you'll potentially get a lot of goods, but I don't think it's worth the time to do that and also I like to restrict my raiding to ONLY the trading ships and killing defenders. I'm not sure if you destroy a station/factory if it'll ever be rebuilt (I don't think so) so essentially you're slaughtering a "cash cow" of a trading route. LOL
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods *NEW*
Post by: Wayleran on January 27, 2018, 10:31:57 PM
Removed by Wayleran
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 28, 2018, 12:01:27 AM
I'm not sure if you destroy a station/factory if it'll ever be rebuilt (I don't think so) so essentially you're slaughtering a "cash cow" of a trading route. LOL
Indeed it is so: destroyed Stations will never regenerate with the current build of the game. Sad!

That's why I've only ever raided Pirate Stations and a Sector who was already pissed off at me for no reason at all way out in the Outer Rim. :P
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on January 28, 2018, 07:53:23 AM
I'm not sure if you destroy a station/factory if it'll ever be rebuilt (I don't think so) so essentially you're slaughtering a "cash cow" of a trading route. LOL
Indeed it is so: destroyed Stations will never regenerate with the current build of the game. Sad!

That's why I've only ever raided Pirate Stations and a Sector who was already pissed off at me for no reason at all way out in the Outer Rim. :P

Just do what I do and attack the cargo haulers. They're a constant source of credits and easier to kill than holding down the left mouse button for 20 mins while you whittle down an entire station. LOL

Plus, my Economy Mod is designed with only killing cargo ships in mind. It's one of the only self-imposed restrictions I put upon myself. And I ONLY attack pirate factions OR factions that are hostile towards me upon first encountering them. I mean if they hate me right from the get-go, than F 'em I say.  ;)
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 28, 2018, 08:23:19 AM
Wayleran, I've been playing with a friend on a server and I've noticed the Deposits system is a bit broken. On a delivery for $20k of goods, you'll need more than $20k deposit for some reason. How was this meant to work? Also it doesn't say anywhere what the deposit amount you need actually is, so you can't know how much money you need to make the deposit, which is silly.

Is this something your mod has altered? Or is this the new beta functionality?
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 28, 2018, 09:14:40 AM
Wayleran, I've been playing with a friend on a server and I've noticed the Deposits system is a bit broken. On a delivery for $20k of goods, you'll need more than $20k deposit for some reason. How was this meant to work? Also it doesn't say anywhere what the deposit amount you need actually is, so you can't know how much money you need to make the deposit, which is silly.

Is this something your mod has altered? Or is this the new beta functionality?

I can't speak for how it worked in the past in Avorion, but a deposit is typically supposed to be worth equal to or more than the goods you are transporting. It's meant as an insurance policy that helps protect the customer from having their cargo stolen by the person doing the transport and that only works if the deposit is at least equal to the value of the cargo being transported.

Source: my time playing EVE Online. Both games have an economy (EVE's run by players, Avorion's simulated). in EVE, if you want to do cargo hauling, you typically need to pay a deposit worth more than whatever you're hauling so the client is covered in case you steal their cargo. So it would make sense from a lore and maybe game balance perspective.

Not saying that it's intended though.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 28, 2018, 05:33:13 PM
I guess it makes sense now I stop to think about it. It was just surprising to see I needed more than the amount of money I was aiming to gain from completing the mission to even take it first. This is coming from a new playthrough in a fresh galaxy where I have no assets at all to play around with, so getting the start-up is hard when even missions that earn you some decent cash can't be accessed because of a hard "you need at least $80k to take this" paywall. The rich get richer I guess!
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 29, 2018, 01:02:13 AM
Things definitely feel better with the extra ships in pirate and alien attacks.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on January 30, 2018, 02:04:41 PM
I've been thinking about this mod. A friend of mine and myself have recently started a server, which means we begun from scratch. We've been having an extremely hard time getting to the first "leg-up" you need, that first capital investment to get rolling. This is because the enemies around us are always stronger, we're always considered "very weak for this Sector" and we get ambushed so often (I notice events at least every 5 minutes), it's hard to stick around and mine in peace, most of the time. I got a lucky break and found a wreckage worth 300,000 Trinium and 3 million Credits once I'd sold it all in Build Mode, so we got there in the end, but this was after maybe 15 hours of server playtime. In all this time, we have destroyed 3 ships, and never gotten into a serious fight. I haven't not heard combat music that long since... well, ever.

Although I like the idea of a dangerous universe that you need to make a name for yourself in, the sheer amount of ass-kicking these enemies are giving us is a bit... intense.

Maybe we could tweak the balancing of this to help facilitate an easier and speedier early game? Since I believe the purview of this mod is to help tone done the crazy mid- and late game balancing, it feels a bit unfair to also punish the already weak early game.

Is there something you could do to make the difficulty curve feel more exponential, or maybe follow a sigmoid in nature? I feel like ramping up quickly at the start is more fun than slowly grinding your way towards a bit of a foothold.
If you're familiar with how the levelling curves of player characters in Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition work, I'd say that's a great inspiration. Quickly power through the first few levels, have a stable and linear mid game, and quickly accelerate to the last level again at the end. Like I said: sigmoid curve.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on January 30, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
I agree. If there's a way to make the early game enemies easier while keeping the mid and especially end game enemies hard, that would be perfect. Enemies near the core should be very very difficult but combat should still be a viable option in the early game.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Wayleran on February 02, 2018, 04:10:59 AM
I agree. If there's a way to make the early game enemies easier while keeping the mid and especially end game enemies hard, that would be perfect. Enemies near the core should be very very difficult but combat should still be a viable option in the early game.

I've tried to do this as best I can in the past but the problem is the vanilla values don't scale up very well. For instance the ship's hulls and dps don't gradually scale on vanilla like you'd expect. They go up drastically around the "naonite" stages but plateau all throughout the "trinium/xanion" stages and don't go up noticeably until you're well into the core, ie. 100-50 distance from center.

But something I realized is that we should just start the game (whether on vanilla or with my mods) on Normal or Veteran then MANUALLY increase the difficulty around midway in the server.ini and then once again MANUALLY increase the difficulty when you reach the core. This way you get noticeable changes both through my mods and the game's difficulty settings.

As it is the game just isn't balanced well at all. Whether it's because it's just too easy, enemies are too squishy, we do too much dps, bosses are ridiculously too easy, system upgrades (in vanilla) are totally out-of-whack...etc.

So I'd use my mods and stuff but also do that other manual adjustment. Maybe when you first get at least SOME shields go from normal to vet, than when you first get some trinium go from vet to difficult, than finally when you first cross the barrier increase it once more to hard or even insane.

Oh and P.S. - I will be updating the mod again soon, but I'm waiting to see what (if any) positive changes are made to combat difficulty with the new patch coming out. I hope they REALLY adjust numbers so my mods will be mostly unneccessary. But I have a feeling it's just going to be "fluff" like torpedoes and stuff, IMHO, we don't need right now. We need balance and polish and they need to prep for release THEN and only then continue adding "content".
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on February 02, 2018, 06:37:30 AM
I know they talked about adding specialized ships for the ai like long range, anti shield, anti fighter, etc. Hopefully that helps increase difficulty and fun.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 02, 2018, 12:45:53 PM
But something I realized is that we should just start the game (whether on vanilla or with my mods) on Normal or Veteran then MANUALLY increase the difficulty around midway in the server.ini and then once again MANUALLY increase the difficulty when you reach the core. This way you get noticeable changes both through my mods and the game's difficulty settings.
Is there a way you can integrate the behaviour of the manual difficulty change into your mod? Manually adjusting the server INI every time I jump from "belt to belt" sounds both a little cumbersome and immersion-breaking. Mostly just asking, since you say you've found how to do it manually, whether that's a change that can be made in-code as well.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Ravien on February 02, 2018, 08:57:30 PM
I don't know if mods can modify the server config file.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 03, 2018, 12:35:48 AM
Well, no, I didn't mean that.

If you modify the server INI file, surely you aren't writing code like "scale enemy DPS from 100 to 500 from 0 to 500 Sectors from the Core", right? You're writing "difficulty = 1" or "difficulty = 3". That doesn't actually mean anything at all, until it gets interpreted in code.

So what I'm saying is: is there a way to affect the scaling automatically, by emulating how scaling differs between the different difficulty levels, to simulate the effect that Wayleran is getting in his games by editing the difficulty setting manually?

I.e. can we make dynamic difficulty based on location in the galaxy a bit more well-balanced?
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Cyka on February 03, 2018, 04:14:54 AM
That is excellent news! Thanks for all the updates!

You're welcome. Hope you enjoy it.

The changes to the size and strength of some encounters along with the increase to the hull sizes of some enemies should make a nice difference. I went a bit too hard on nerfing them after the last couple versions. But I think this may be better.

And the economy mod, like it states, is TOTALLY new so I'd recommend trying that out and tell me what you think.

Keep in mind that ONLY trading ships are impacted by this but they are pretty consistent now in terms of the amount you'll get from destroying them. If you decide to take the time to destroy an entire station you'll potentially get a lot of goods, but I don't think it's worth the time to do that and also I like to restrict my raiding to ONLY the trading ships and killing defenders. I'm not sure if you destroy a station/factory if it'll ever be rebuilt (I don't think so) so essentially you're slaughtering a "cash cow" of a trading route. LOL

i think the economy mod at is current state is too much of a grind if you limiting ALL COMMODIES to have 10-50 trade every time. This would be good for trade posts but terrible for a fully upgraded mine. It'd be better if 10-50 is applied to tradeposts or higher end commdies ONLY and implement a big range on other commodities perhaps 50-2500. This way you still get a decent steady income with investments.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 03, 2018, 10:45:31 AM
Having looked a tiny bit at how Wayleran modified the original code, it seems like the amount of goods Traders pick up is not currently dependent on which type of goods that is. That is to say, unlike players, the AI ships don't transaction with money of their own, so they have no limits on what to buy. Therefore: they buy a random amount every time, and that random amount is set-in-stone for the whole operation, rather than based on which type of goods it is. That's a little shoddy, I agree, but it works very well for simulation and you don't super notice at first until you start paying attention.

Anyway, I modified Wayleran's Economy code to better suit my needs. I nerfed the maximum down 30%, which is still pretty decent, but not as extreme as the original modification. I'll leave these two forum posts here for reference:

Instead of a random amount between 50-500 they'll buy/sell only 10-50 which I now know is way too low. I've adjusted it in my own scripts but haven't updated this mod yet.

Just go to shiputilty.lua line 288 and adjust those numbers but they are JUST for trading ships that are spawned for missions like distress signals or trader attacked by pirate events...

line 288: entity:addCargo(g:good(), math.max(10, math.random() * 50))   -- MOD
change the "10" and "50" to the min and max you want the ship to either buy or sell. 50 and 150 or something. But again this is only for mission trading ships not normal trading ships. Go to the next part for those.

Go to tradingutility.lua line 206 and change:

line 206: local amount = math.max(10, math.random() * 50)   -- MOD

change the 10 to something like 50 and the 50 to maybe 150-250. By default those values are 50 and 500. But these ships will always drop EXACTLY 50% of their cargo upon total destruction and salvaging wreckage. So if you select 50-200, you'll get 25-100 goods to drop.

Thanks. I changed both to range from 25 at minimum to 350 at maximum. You may think that's got a high variance, which is true, but I felt like it more accurately represented trading behaviour: sometimes they'll want a little shipment, sometimes they'll want lots and lots. Meanwhile, it's still nerfed the maximum from vanilla down 30%, which I felt was fair without impacting my income too, too much.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Azerik on February 05, 2018, 01:40:43 PM
Is there any way to change the percentage of cargo that will drop from the destroyed ships?  Is there a place in there that I could specify that the cargo ships are heavily armed?

I've got a group of people that spend their entire playtime destroying the economy by hunting cargo ships, nd then complaining their stations don't get stock from npcs.  I'd kinda like hunting cargo ships to be routinely fatal for the players.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 05, 2018, 05:45:52 PM
For the first question, yes, absolutely. That's what we were discussing just above your post. I don't remember which of the two lines it is that controls this, but the two lines Wayleran mentions you need to edit drive the amount of goods dropped by killed traders, exactly as you request.

I don't know about defining how well-armed trader vessels are. Look at some of the trader scripts and the plan generators in the vanilla script library. I'm pretty sure there should be something in there that matches what you're looking for.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Azerik on February 05, 2018, 07:57:20 PM
Do those only cover the stuff that is dropped or what the ship is carrying?  My users seemed to think that it was the latter.  While reducing the amount of stuff that they carry could deal with piracy, if it is also killing the amount that is being delivered to stations if the cargo ships are unmolested, then it's more of a problem.

Really the end-game of Avorion isn't killing the Guardian, it's setting up your commercial empire (IMO at least), so I'm trying to walk a line that discourages piracy by my players, but still allows stations to be supplied.  I'm hoping they come to realize that stations were meant to be mostly supplied by players, but until they do they are expecting npc traders to help out.

If I could leave the amount the ships are carrying reasonably high, but kill the percentage they drop when killed, it would solve the problem.  If I could ridiculously OP arm the traders, then the risk of death would also help deter piracy.  I'm pretty sure that is in the ship generation somewhere, but my coding skills are 30 years out of date.  I don't do bad with what I've done, but if someone with a better understanding of current coding and that has spent more time crawling through the code could aim me in the right direction...
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 05, 2018, 08:11:24 PM
Do those only cover the stuff that is dropped or what the ship is carrying?  My users seemed to think that it was the latter.  While reducing the amount of stuff that they carry could deal with piracy, if it is also killing the amount that is being delivered to stations if the cargo ships are unmolested, then it's more of a problem.
Let's see what Wayleran has to say about it:

Just go to shiputilty.lua line 288 and adjust those numbers but they are JUST for trading ships that are spawned for missions like distress signals or trader attacked by pirate events...

line 288: entity:addCargo(g:good(), math.max(10, math.random() * 50))   -- MOD
change the "10" and "50" to the min and max you want the ship to either buy or sell. 50 and 150 or something. But again this is only for mission trading ships not normal trading ships. Go to the next part for those.
OK, so when it comes to "event Trader vessels" like the distress call Traders, this is the line to modify, in shiputility.lua, line 288.

Meanwhile, he says the following about actual Traders that buy and sell cargo to Stations:
Quote
Go to tradingutility.lua line 206 and change:

line 206: local amount = math.max(10, math.random() * 50)   -- MOD

change the 10 to something like 50 and the 50 to maybe 150-250. By default those values are 50 and 500. But these ships will always drop EXACTLY 50% of their cargo upon total destruction and salvaging wreckage. So if you select 50-200, you'll get 25-100 goods to drop.
So change tradingutility.lua, line 206, to change the amount that cargo ships that go to Stations to buy/sell goods carry on each trip.

According to him, these vessels always drop 50% of what they were carrying when they die, no changing it. So it would seem there is no way to modify how much they drop when killed without inherently modifying how much they buy/sell (or rather: the relationship is inverse to that - how much they buy/sell directly influences how much they'll drop).

Where did you learn this, Wayleran? Was it from experimentation? I'd love to find out.

EDIT:
Just to follow up on this, take a look at this code from civilship.lua. It details what happens if the Cargo Hauler decides to indeed dump their cargo when the player threatens to raid them:

Code: [Select]
function CivilShip.dumpCargo()
    if onClient() then
        invokeServerFunction("dumpCargo")
        return
    end

    local ship = Entity()
    local cargos = ship:getCargos()

    for good, amount in pairs(cargos) do
        for i = 1, amount, 2 do
            Sector():dropCargo(ship.translationf, Faction(callingPlayer), Faction(ship.factionIndex), good, ship.factionIndex, 2)
        end

        ship:removeCargo(good, amount)
    end
end

The part where it reads
Code: [Select]
for i = 1, amount, 2 do
    Sector():dropCargo(ship.translationf, Faction(callingPlayer), Faction(ship.factionIndex), good, ship.factionIndex, 2)
end
highly intrigues me.

What you can see happening there is that the for loop iterates from 1 up to the amount of goods the Cargo Hauler has, and drops that item of cargo on an individual basis, but does this for every second item of cargo in their cargo bays. This means they'll also always drop half even if you threaten to destroy them, and they tell you they'll give you everything they've got! And then the script just plain deletes the rest, simulating that the ship did indeed drop all their cargo, when in fact they dropped half and crammed the rest into their Fusion Generators for fuel. Hahaha, what?? It would seem the devs want us to only ever raid 50% of what Cargo Haulers carry, no change to be made. I guess there's a lesson here: piracy doesn't pay! ;D

Interesting. I will continue to investigate.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Azerik on February 07, 2018, 04:04:03 AM
Yeah, I had found those lines when you guys were discussing it and I modified them already.  The question, you just cleared up for me, was if there was any way to drop that 50% down to something else.

I wonder if that line you found, you could either replace the amount with an actual number or adjust that 2 after the "amount" to b say, 4 so they only drop every 4th good or 25%?
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 07, 2018, 04:11:53 AM
I wonder if that line you found, you could either replace the amount with an actual number or adjust that 2 after the "amount" to b say, 4 so they only drop every 4th good or 25%?
Yup, totally. I wouldn't hard-code what is now in-code called amount, though. You could still keep the abstraction of using the variable amount, but do some Math to it. For example, replace amount with amount/2 to only process half the amount of cargo.

Alternatively, if you modify the 2 in that for loop, you'll make it skip more items of cargo than currently.

Basically, the for loop can be read as follows:

So basically, if you would change 2 into 3, it will process (i.e. drop, in this case) every third item of cargo.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Azerik on February 07, 2018, 04:56:55 AM
I think that is going to be my solution, I will run the max cargo back up a bit so unmolested npcs will help supply things, and then make it so it only drops a smidgen of the available cargo when killed/robbed.

Unless someone finds a way to arm these guys and make them shoot back....that'd be the best punishment for pirates IMO.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Shrooblord on February 12, 2018, 11:03:44 PM
I think that is going to be my solution, I will run the max cargo back up a bit so unmolested npcs will help supply things, and then make it so it only drops a smidgen of the available cargo when killed/robbed.
Well, note that this code is specifically for when the player uses the Interaction "Give me all your cargo!"

I never found the code where it states how much a trader ship drops when blown up, and Wayleran's messages seem to suggest that he found out they always drop 50% of their cargo, no matter what you do.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: abrackers on February 15, 2018, 09:54:25 PM
This mod is on a couple of servers I played on, and other than the economy section I love it. However, the economy mod has made me leave both of those servers, and they were the only two English speaking populated servers I could find. My problem with the economy mod is as follows:

In my opinion is seems silly that a station that requires 2k oxygen per minute to function, gets the same delivery of 10-50 items as a research station that can only store a total of  50 proton accelerators.

It also seems silly to me that a outer rim small station with storage for only a couple of items gets the same delivery as a giant core mega station with hundreds of thousands of cargo space.

Thirdly, with player made stations in vanilla, you can increase profitability through spending credits to increase the small - XXL size of the station in the menu, and you can increase profitability by spending credits and resources to increase the physical size and therefore cargo capacity of the station. However, with this mod there is no point in building any station better than small, or with more than 1000 cargo space, at which point they're too small for endgame players to really dock with them without a lot of effort.

Finally, it seems ridiculous a giant cargo hauler at least 10x the size of my ship carries such a small amount compared to my ship.

May i suggest/request instead of applying a numerical based cap on the ammount of cargo they carry, you make the cargo ships cary a proportion of the amount needed by the station they are delivering to, as vanilla does. However vanilla's amount of I think 50-75% is too high, especially for a difficulty mod. I would suggest 25-50% seems more reasonable, but that is your choice as to how much difficulty you want this mod to add specifically to the station builder playstyle.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: Azerik on February 21, 2018, 11:17:13 PM
Do these files need to be clientside as well as serverside?  I'm trying to clean some of the junk out of my modpack and only have people install what they need to rather than everything.
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: wele1060 on February 24, 2018, 08:38:30 PM
Am I missing the link for the download? I'm really excited about adding these to the server but can't find the link.

Edit: Duh....there it is....
Title: Re: [MOD PACK] Galaxy Mods: Balance & Difficulty Mods
Post by: joemorin73 on March 01, 2018, 07:00:40 PM
I've been making my own adjustments to this mod to try and adapt it to 16.  Is there any word if the original author will be working on it?