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Topics - WSY

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Mods / Fighter mod options
« on: October 10, 2019, 04:32:47 PM »
Are we able to mod anything about fighters?

With all the ships afterburning around fighters really cannot keep up.

Is there a way too either:

Give fighters an afterburner ability or temporary speed boost until they are say in weapons range?

Or

Possibly change their behavior to that of a torpedo to close distance then switch back to fighter behavior.

Even if it took fighter carrier commands to change their state it would be preferable I think to what we have now.

If it is possible, and someone could provide an example, happy to do the balance of numbers and extra work etc myself.  I'm good at reverse engineering code, but do not have the skill level to know what is possible through code innovation.

Thanks!

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I apologize as I originally meant to put this thread here, but put it in suggestions. It's a bit of both, so I just linked it here as well:

https://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

It's quite long so apologies in advance.

Thanks!

3
I apologize in advance as this is essentially a giant wall of text (this thing spans 4 posts), and can be seen as a feedback/suggestion thread. If you are going to just reply with TL/DR then please don’t unless you are responding to a section, it doesn’t contribute to the conversation otherwise, I know its too long already :)

So I have been reading through the forums and have seen a ton of posts of suggestions concerning engines, fleet mechanics, weapons, and the lean towards bigger is better. I have been thinking on this and have some ideas/suggestions, and hope to open some discussion on it. Some of it is from other’s suggestions, which I have added into my suggestion thread.

Quick Disclaimer: I really enjoy this game, and I think a large part of its charm is how open it is, so one person’s idea of how they think the game should be will not necessarily match someone else’s, but they can simply just build their own ships to match their own idea of how they want it to play.  Personally, as a hobbyist writer I do not like it when people tell me how they think my stories should go, but do like when people bounce ideas off me, usually from that I further formulate my own ideas, so I hope this post is seen as nothing more than list of ideas and concept discussion that koonschi can use to have even better ideas.  In summary: Its your vision, but hopefully you can gleam some ideas from it.

I am going to start with the biggest influence of all aspects of the game, however all my suggestions tie together:
(special note, while I know logistics can affect some of what I am bringing up, I am ignoring that due to Avorion not taking into account logistics beyond personnel  and torpedoes– ammo, fuel, etc)

Considerations: When I am posting I am taking several things into consideration - I have taken this list from a Naval Analyst who summed it up nicely:
Strategic Assumptions
Strategic Goals
Fleet missions
Fleet Design
Force Size
Force Management

Shields (Strategic Assumption, Goal and Fleet Design):
Shields change a lot of things because all of human history is pretty much our ability to destroy almost always exceeding our ability to defend; our nature to adapt and overcome. Thus the saying “The best defense is a good offense.”

Its why we protect mission critical assets with escorts. Think WWII fleets protecting carriers, or supply ships. The goal is to destroy whatever the threat is before it can get to its target.

Another example is the Phalanx system, or sea whiz  (CIWS) as some US Navy peeps call it. It’s a multi barreled active radar anti-fighter, anti-missile defense system. (Ground version used to protect against artillery.) It destroys the missiles or shells before they can reach whatever it is they are protecting. However it can be overwhelmed, and there is a “chance” things can get through.  We see this in game with Point Defense against Torpedoes, which I absolutely love.
Shields however are different. They are what I would call an “absolute defense”.  This changes the dynamic. Take that same WWII fleet, and apply to a space fleet with shields. Well now with shields, you do not need a surrounding escort to eliminate any chance of threats reaching their target. A military is going to invest in what it know WILL protect an asset as oppose to something that “may”. In the case of shields it simply has to survive long enough till the threat is destroyed.  Not sure it will survive long? SLAP MOAR SHIELDS ON IT!!! Now all you have to do is wait till the giga-class super battleship next to it wipes out all the enemies. No need for any escort beyond that to prevent penetrations through a “defense screen”. – Not saying there wouldn’t be escorts if shields were present, but it would eliminate a portion of the need for them as well as certain aspects of point defense – all depending on how shields work too of course. I know this is a bit of an over simplification, but I feel it fits. I also feel the Dev has a good handle on this as he has torpedoes that can Penetrate shields, and also the module that hardens shields for large shield point and charge time costs.

The same principle applies to fighter dynamics. The Yamato was destroyed by US air power. Such a concern were fighters that they went from 24 AA guns to 162 AA guns (this is not emplacement count, which could accommodate up to 4 guns). This large amount of AA still didn’t save it.

Battlegroups would have cruisers and other support ships around to provide additional AA fire, thereby creating a “defense screen” for other ships.  (Special note, this added to the Yamato’s demise, where the multiple cruisers and support ships with additional AA guns were not present or destroyed prior to when it was finally sunk)

With shields, again this becomes less necessary.  I as a player love the idea of a fleet with escorts, some providing anti-fighter defense, and some as additional firepower, etc. However the truth is, it’s not really all that necessary from a mechanics point of view, why? Shields is one of them. No single fighter (in this game) is a threat to a mission critical ship because you can stack more shields on it. Not enough shields? Shield upgrade and boom, you have a near impenetrable box. (unless they have 120 fighters with overpowered weapons, in which case balance drastically swings the other way – more on that later ( I never see the AI have this though). Some players forgo armor and hull completely because they can just stack shields and some integrity fields and be done with it.  Nothing wrong with this, as it can look cool or functional, but I think like with anything, it should be a design choice with vulnerabilities. I see some great answers to this, such as rail guns and the pulse weapons.

Pulse weapons can penetrate shields, and thus return the need for some “layered defenses” but the DPS is fairly low, and big system blocks with integrity fields can likely tank it long enough to be a balance. I think railguns are great for  needing a form of “layered defense”

PROBLEM
In summary: Shield’s remove the need for “defensive screens,” and “Layered Defenses” and contribute to BIGGER IS BETTER. (Partially resolved with Shield pen torpedoes and things like tesla and plasma weapons which has bonuses against shields.)

Possible solution ideas:
Diminishing returns on shield count: Using interpolation math,  y=1/F, or exponent functions of less than 1. (Some math guys can confirm that, I may have that wrong.)
  • From a lore perspective, you can just say that the nature of shields cause this affect
    Bonus module idea: You could have a special module that lessens this diminishing return. – though current shield upgrades would likely be enough.


Exponential power demands: Make it so the shields require exponential amounts of power as they get past a certain point. Could use interpolation math on this too – or even tie the power requirement per shield to volume.
  • From a lore perspective, more power (or exponential power past a certain point) required to cover larger and larger ships
  • Power modules could play more into the game besides just adding power blocks, and modules that give % of shield in exchange % of power need to be more carefully considered by players.
  • A variation of this idea: You could have power requirements related to volume, and the shield blocks related to points? Or Shield blocks a mix of both in addition to power requirements for volume.

Diminishing return on shield based on upgrades/volume: Tie in the return on shield blocks to upgrade slots.
  • Lore perspective, more shield modules required to cover more volume of the ship for same shield strength – like density.
    I am not as big of a fan of this one because it could lead to people cutting a few units of volume off their ship to go down one upgrade slot and having way more hitpoints – depending on the curve set for this.
(You could also mix A and B)

Benefits to suggestion:
Bigger will not always be better, my other suggestions will come into play for this later. As an example a 15 upgrade super ship with lots of shield blocks and all turret upgrades, may in fact have less shields than say an 11 upgrade ship with one or 2 shield upgrade modules. Unless the 15 Upgrade ship is super huge – trying to increase shield numbers by sheer volume of shield blocks as opposed to upgrades-, but if that is the case, its cost (resource and power consumption) would become near exponential as you get further diminishing returns.
Super large ships may consider more armor since after a certain point as it would become cheaper (crew, power, resource, and mass wise) per hitpoint than shields.

-  Great in lore explanation as to why space stations don’t pack more shields, or if they do, why they wouldn’t be in the billions.
 - Encouragement to have other small ships in fleet with shields, and not pack it all into one ship.
 - Possibly help the balance point of endgame, whereas the answer to the end game will not be simply a bigger ship with MOAR SHIELDS!!!! AI ships with
    more omicron could become scary since you cannot simply shield tank everything. This could in turn encourage either large heavily armored ships, or
    smaller more nimble ships to dodge fire. Maneuverability is also Ina way an absolute defense - which segways into the next section.


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Bugs / Low priority bug - not payed for pirates killed in other sectors
« on: October 27, 2017, 09:10:18 PM »
Not entirely if bug or expected mechanic as normally player ships cause pirates and xsotan to spawn, not active sectors:

I do not get paid for pirates killed in sectors I am not in.

I have a small escort ship following a buddy of mine through beginning sector, it kills pirates but no payout.

Not a big deal really but something I noticed.

RECREATE:

Build a secondary ship, give crew, give pew pew cannons, set to patrol while another player mines minerals,  leave sector  patrol ship  protecting other player, Not Profit....

Expected behavior? Bug? Or just me having the problem?


Easily resolved if both ships are in the fleet I am guessing. Will try that tonight.

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Suggestions / Fighter and point defense relationships.
« on: October 25, 2017, 08:54:43 PM »
Hello hello,
 Random person from the Internet here to suggest another couple ideas to the several hundreds already suggested, because we all know devs go to sleep at night looking forward to more every morning!!!!   :o

Kidding aside, I have some "hopefully" realistic suggestions that hope are in line with what the engine can already do, and I have some less realistic ones, because, why not. Also you will find I am fairly passionate about a good medium of balance, gameplay, and visuals.  Also sorry for grammatical errors, doing this on the phone for lunch.

Ok, so for the most realistic:

Fighters are incredibly powerful, as well as they should be given their exuberant cost (I love fighters). I  also love the Dodge mechanic but I feel like it does not scale properly with numbers.

What I mean is that as the fighter flies in and out of range, you really have to focus everything on that one fighter to take him down, this gets much much worse when numbers increase and you involve ai ships or auto fire turrets that will switch targets (range, fire arc) and result in fighters always having dodges available.

I had a trinium level ship, came back to beginner area to help friend and then, myself, had a hard time taking down system invasion iron area fighters. Now I don't have a ship with all big guns, I have a dozen scatter fire chain gun turrets as well. Which of course use to just slaughter fighters.  After a few minutes of focusing on one...just one I had to give up. When I fire, the front of my ship looks like a six barreled automatic shot gun firing tracer rounds; it is a big wall of glowing pew pew, but still nothing went down.

I think it would be a good idea to make it so dodge chances and associated cool down are server configurable, this would allow us to experiment to find  a happy medium with guns we have. (Maybe you have this and I completely missed it)

Now onto weapons.
I think honestly all the mechanics are in place, but I think a really good point defense weapon are the zero spread rapid fire burst and overheating chain guns. They look like modern day AA fire, and / or the point defense fire from Earth ships in Stargate. A group of ships with a couple of these going off with arcs chasing fighters would be oh so sexy.

From a mechanic perspective, these guns could have a higher percentage accuracy, maybe even over a hundred, or accuracy bonus against fighters, or not affected by the accuracy debuff against fighters, however you would want to do that. The overheating mechanic would then play a part as well, helping fighters use up their dodges but not guarantee a kill since it couldn't keep firing. You would need other similar turrets, or this would give your regular guns/laser a chance at killing the fighter.

You could also make it super low damage vs the fighter and simply have it as an effective system for forcing fighters to use up their dodges. On the other hand these guns would not much damage vs other larger vessels either way. You could also make a pulse weapon version for players who have an aversion to bullets or a later game rapid fire rail gun version (ala Stargate)

This could also be done with a point defense laser, (faster tracking, no accuracy debuff vs fighters) and also overheat quickly. You could then choose the route of super low damage so they use up the fighters dodge chances or make em more effective so they also do some damage, so if more than one focuses on same fighter or it is out of Dodge chances, it may take fatal damage. Really it would be just like the chain gun point defense mechanically, just different projectile type.

Another suggestion, more difficult I'm sure  to implement is a variation of a flack weapon. You could use bolters turret model and projectiles, but the max range would be like 3 k or so, then have a variation in projectile time to live within that 3k. When projectile hits or dies from ttl expiration, it could have a small AOE damage, such as .5 or .25, this does zero damage to cap ships, but hurts fighters. This kind of gun while largely ineffective against a lone fighter thanks to the randomized time to live on the shell, would be extremely effective against overwhelming swarms. Trade off being it would have to be a fairly thick swarm and one turret doesn't do enough damage, but would force fighters to use up dodge chances so other guns can hit them.

Anyhow just some quick suggestions.

Hit me up if you want more details and or ideas. I think the above could still allow fighters to be really effective, but allow ai and players a counter giving them some chances, while also making some good looking space battles.  This would force someone such as myself to say oh look, blobs of flack, let's hit him with the longer range  stuff from my ship and then send in the fighters. Even if someone has a mix, they are giving up big ship pew pew for point defense capability, and I feel would help  strike a balance of  effectiveness against a large group of fighters vs other large ships. I also feel like the relationship will scale fairly well as ship sizes and fighter number and turret number available to ships involved increase.

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Gameplay Discussion / Will AI ships pickup drops?
« on: July 21, 2017, 03:15:30 PM »
Hi everyone,

Due to work/life balance being messed up at the moment I have not had a chance to test or experiment; I was wondering if some one else could answer:

So I know we now get 5 sectors that will run depending how many ships or stations are in it. So if I leave a sector protected by a fleet, will the xotan(forget their spelling) or pirates still invade, get blown up by my fleet, then my fleet pick up the modules or weapons if they are close enough?

Thanks!
(Edited because my phone and I are going through a rough patch in our forum posting, and spelling relationship)

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